If you’re like many women in the BTR.ORG community. You’ve spent hours scouring the internet, researching why your husband has no empathy for you. Is it mental illness? A history of trauma? Is it physiological? Due to addiction or pornography use?

Or is it a choice? Is he choosing to exhibit little to no empathy in the marriage? If you need live support, learn about our online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

Nora is on the BTR.ORG podcast with Anne, taking a deep dive into why some men abuse their partners. And refuse to connect in a compassionate, healthy way. Listen to the free BTR.ORG podcast and read the full transcript below for more.

All The (Wrong) Reasons…

Many women in the BTR.ORG community have tried to find the cause for their partner’s cold, distant, abusive behaviors. That do not include abuse – hopeful that their partner can change or be fixed so that the marriage can stay intact. Therapists, clergy, internet research and others may point them in the direction of:

• Mental illness
• Addiction
• Alcoholism
• Anger problems
• Pornography use
• Personality disorders
• Childhood trauma
• Stress
• Poor examples of marriage/relationships
• Autism

While abusive men may have any combination of these. Abuse is a choice that men make – not a condition that they cannot control. So alcoholism, for example, may exacerbate abuse, but it is not the cause of abuse.

Abusing You Is His Choice: Now What?

Understanding that he is choosing to abuse you. Despite any number of addictions, illnesses, disabilities, or disorders, can be scary. Victims may feel trapped, wondering how to proceed. When a disorder, addiction, or other external issue is to blame, there is a solution. But when it’s his choice to be abusive, only he can make the choice to change.

Women seeking education regarding an abusive partner may benefit from these resources:

• BTR.ORG Individual Sessions
• BTR.ORG Group Sessions
• The BTR.ORG Podcast

To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this FREE emotional abuse quiz.

Transcript: What To Do When Your Husband Has No Empathy

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Norine. She’s a victim of betrayal and emotional, psychological, and financial abuse. Her ex-husband is a former police officer and serving a sentence in federal prison after a child sex abuse material conviction. Sometimes people call that child pornography, but we know it’s just child sexual abuse material.

Her ex-husband staunchly denied he knew anything about the child sex abuse material on his computer, and insisted she was responsible for “planting it there.”

Welcome. Norine.

Norine: Thank you so much, glad to be here.

Anne: As women are trying to figure out what is going on, like is he an addict, does he have a personality disorder? They start going down that path, so I think many women will be interested in your story. And the ways you have processed this.

Norine: I’ve thought, you know, personality disorder, narcissism, abuser, and he was abusive. But at the time, I’d only done as much research as I could and loved him for as long as I wanted to fix things. He was involved in a shooting incident at work. As a person in law enforcement, I assumed PTSD, but he said, “No, you’re my problem.”

Therapy & Misguided Support With Assessment

Norine: So, my ex got his own therapist, wonderful, through work. He told them, I don’t need support, I need this because my wife is so awful to me. My husband had no empathy. That therapist even called me in to talk to me and didn’t believe me. He dismissed me. He invited me in and then didn’t want to hear from me. I think, again, he was looking for me to be the problem. There’s something wrong with her.

He spent our entire marriage thinking any emotion I had was wrong, so I was just whining. And didn’t seem to understand that I had feelings. He wasn’t capable of compromising often. Context blindness was another aspect, it was the forest for the trees issue, which he couldn’t see. He couldn’t see what I call the connective tissue between decisions we made or things we were arguing about. My husband has no empathy.

He cannot take responsibility for his own actions. That’s one of the primary issues. He believes he’s always right, despite plenty of evidence. I was hurt by the time he spent on his computer, even if I wasn’t aware of what he was doing. I was just trying to, it’s what everybody views as a label, but I wanted an answer, a reason. So I started with personality disorder. I said, can you look into this? I want to help him, I want our family back together. This wasn’t to label him and…

Anne: It was to solve a problem.

Norine: Right, the assessment I booked it and I paid for it. We drove to the assessment together. I went home with him.

He Received An Autism Diagnosis

Norine: And yes, buying into this idea that oh, it’s autism. We can address this now, because we know what it is. I hadn’t identified it as abuse, from my point of view at that point.

My husband has no empathy. He blames me for everything, what I’m not doing. I didn’t see it as abuse. There was no discussion of that, and I wasn’t surprised for that to be the case. Because law enforcement chose this therapist. And that’s another bullet on my list of people who weren’t safe people to go to, because they exacerbated the problem.

Anne: The things that you just said on that list are the traits of abusers who do not have autism. When he received his diagnosis, how did he think about it?

Norine: We didn’t talk about it much, so I don’t know fully. But the next day it was, you know, this is not me. You’re just looking for an excuse to deflect and minimize your responsibility for the problem we have. And the situation we’re in now.

It was right back to the script he followed for the entire time. That I had done something wrong, and I needed to toe the line and get my behavior back in order. So that we could put our marriage back together again, and that I wouldn’t take responsibility.

Anne: Yeah.

Searching For The Cause When Your Husband Has No Empathy

Anne: This is something that I think is super important for every single listener of this podcast. I say it repeatedly, but I want it to hit home for everyone. It does not matter what the cause is, if it’s abusive to you, it’s abusive. It breaks our hearts, because it could be something that is completely not their fault. Someone could be a super healthy person and get like a head injury, for example.

And their head injury alters their personality and causes them to be abusive. In that case, you can, with compassion, look at them. And say, this is such an unfortunate situation that they had this head injury and it caused them to be abusive. But that doesn’t mean the abuse is okay. If you’re harmed, it’s okay to get to safety regardless of the cause.

That’s really hard, because women think if they can figure out why he’s doing these harmful behaviors to their family. If they understand why their husband has no empathy. They might not use the word abuse, they think. If they can figure out why, then we can solve it. As you tried to get help and explain what had happened to people at the time, you didn’t have the words. And so the thing you were talking about the most was a diagnosis.

Norine: Yes, and thank you for saying that. Because if there’s one take home, let’s say six years out from the major crisis. Is that I have come to understand it’s abuse. I amplify that message that it’s abuse, and you need to take care of you and your children.

He Plays The Blame Game & Seeking Answers

Anne: Many men would not go in for a psych evaluation, or some sort of testing. So what prompted the test to get a diagnosis?

Norine: It was, of course, my idea. Because I came out of our second couple’s therapist of three where the therapist told him, “Her needs were important to you, and you wanted to honor those.” And his immediate response was, well, no. I thought she was going to leave me, so I had to. It was so devoid of any sort of care for me, or even an awareness that he should be at least putting on a show that he cared.

And it just hit me wrong, and that’s where I went down the rabbit hole and hit on the term alexithymia. Which is this difficulty connecting with the feelings of others and identifying them. So I pushed, and he was I think so wholly convinced that I was the problem, that he was willing to do that. Because it would prove that I was the issue, and there was nothing wrong with him.

The fall apart stage was after the birth of my second child. When I decided I wanted a third child. And he didn’t want one. It was the same fight as through all those years. But I held my ground with what I wanted for the first time, thinking that surely this time I will convince him. He did agree. And so I got pregnant.

So we were on a family vacation, and he was cold and distant. My husband has no empathy. Then said, “You blackmailed me into having this child, and I can’t accept it.” And so here I was pregnant with two little guys, and he was ready to move out.

Discovering The Truth

Norine: Honestly, I did not learn until two days after I testified at his federal trial that confirmed 100 percent, that he was cheating. But when he left the house, he originally said I was sticking him with the children as much as possible. At every spare moment he had, and he didn’t want them. I said, okay, I’ll keep them. Then suddenly he wanted them. And he was taking my children off to hang out with his mistress.

I suspected, but I kept putting it aside because I wanted to believe it wasn’t happening, and we could still fix the marriage. That was months and months before I got really suspicious. He said we didn’t have enough money for a third child, but he spent a lot of money.

That’s when I logged into his computer looking for evidence of whatever was going on with him. And that’s when I found quite a bit of adult pornography. And then I thought it was being deleted from the hard drive. So I set it aside, turned it off, disconnected it, and still wanted to work on the marriage. His behavior was then erratic.

Through this whole period, he would disappear with my kids. And that’s how he took them someplace, and I thought he was taking them for good. He was just doing various suspicious things. Like putting a trash can in front of my car, in the driveway in front of the garage door.

So I would have to get out and move it when I opened the garage door. Or trash the house and say the dogs spread garbage around. So he was starting to get really manipulative in that way.

When Your Husband Has No Empathy: Forensic Evidence & Legal Battles

Norine: Ultimately, I said to myself, I have to investigate what’s on this computer. This is where I think it connects with what you talk about here on your podcast. I thought surely the courts will say, well, this man has tens of thousands of images on his computer, that he’s downloading all the time. He can’t be an effective parent, and I would get custody and the kids would be safe.

So I sent the computer off for forensics, still not letting myself believe any more than moments at a time. And it came back with CSAM on it. My husband has no empathy.

Anne: So CSAM is the term Child Sexual Abuse Material, which is more accurate than child pornography. Because all child pornography is evidence of child sexual abuse. So how did your experiences with DV and counseling professionals, law enforcement, the courts exacerbate your trauma?

Norine: In so many ways. Whenever I think of this now that I’ve been listening to your podcast, I think of one episode you did and I’ve listened to them out of sequence. So I don’t know how long ago it was, but it was when you were so raw, honest, and vulnerable. About having been in court and having gotten nothing of what you wanted and needed for you and your kids in terms of custody. That feeling came right to the surface for me.

Again, I don’t think I cried so hard as I have in family courts. Because people have not recognized this idea of describing these experiences, and not believed by friends, family, and professionals. And I faced it over and over again.

Emotional Turmoil In Family Courts

Norine: When he was arrested, the people in his department went to the FBI agent, and they said, oh, you know, of course she set him up, right? He didn’t do this. And the FBI agent said, go read the filing documents. And then I think some of them believed, but they weren’t a resource for me. I even have one domestic violence counselor, because I’ve been to several of the centers in my various towns, and one said, oh, well it’s very nuanced.

Because I went to them at one point thinking, am I the abuser? Is this all my fault? Did I do something wrong? Oh, it can be very nuanced. Because she didn’t hear anything I said that made her say, oh, yes, he’s abusive. So there I was already in this fog of self doubt, and that set me back.

The courts just don’t have space to listen to any of the categories you discuss in your podcast. They’re so focused on, this must be two parties who contribute equally to a problematic dynamic. And they’re both acting childish or irresponsibly. We’re just going to shut this down. Because the best thing for children, except for extreme circumstances that we can’t identify here. Is their access to both parents. Autism doesn’t make people abusive. It also doesn’t make people bad parents.

So we can’t go into the courtroom and say he has autism, so he can’t have custody. It has to be about the behaviors and traits, and I’m not sure I ever got that bulleted list together for myself. Of what is going on here that makes him unsafe, because it was so nebulous. That’s the reason why I’m not believed.

My Husband Has No Empathy: He Neglects Our Children

Norine: If I say, he called me up and had custody of the kids, and he hadn’t fed them dinner at 8 o’clock. My husband has no empathy. They were all under the age of 7. People were like, well, that’s not child abuse to not feed them until 8 o’clock at night. I just kind of felt stuck at the how do I demonstrate that this is problematic behavior regardless of its label.

And then I got the deus ex machina situation, well, he’s been lifted out of here. He’s clearly unsafe because he’s looking at CSAM, but I have colleagues whose partners don’t do that, and they’re just as unsafe in other ways.

Anne: Yeah, a lot of people said, oh, your ex got arrested for abuse. I have a guilty verdict with a 14 month probation and a protective order. And the courts didn’t see that as dangerous around children either. It’s so interesting when you try to define these sort of psychological and emotional abusive things, they’re like, well, he just isn’t into trombone, when I say he will not support my son in his trombone.

Things that when you’re in it, you know, how abusive it is. But from the outside, they just think, oh, people parent differently. There are different styles. So it’s also interesting that there’s no abuse diagnosis. There’s no space for that. Even though the courts say there is. It’s crazy making for those of us who have tried to get our kids to safety.

Courts Don’t Understand Emotional & Psychological Abuse

Norine: You know, I read the entire transcript three years out. I testified, and then I promptly left the courtroom, never to return because I didn’t want to hear it. But I felt ready to read it and understand what I’m up against when he’s released. At a sentencing hearing, the federal court judge who sat there and heard all his testimony and all the lies he told.

That’s all explicitly on record. You perjured yourself, you blamed your ex wife, you are at fault and you will not admit it. During his house arrest period, he was not to go near me or the children. In the next breath, he said, I released this hold. You can have unsupervised visitation with your children if the family courts allow it. My husband has no empathy.

Anne: And the family courts don’t understand emotional and psychological abuse. They don’t understand these issues of sexual coercion, sexual safety, unless they’re in prison or there’s some kind of severe bruise.

Norine: Right, it wasn’t enough that the content he was watching, I will not get graphic, but incest was a theme. So how would you say my children are safe?

Anne: I had a guardian ad litem look over it when I was saying he was unsafe. And say, I don’t understand why she’s saying her ex is unsafe. He seems safe to me.

Norine: He looked at me two weeks before I gave birth to our third child and said, I want nothing to do with this baby. And I told a guardian ad litem. She said, well, he wants to be a parent now, so we need to let him.

Struggles With Friends & Family

Anne: Let’s talk about friends and family, apart from counseling professionals in the court. How did they see this? Did they believe and support you? Or realize your husband has no empathy?

Norine: On the side of my friends, you know this, and listeners probably know this. That you learn who your true friends are. You learn who your tough friends are, because it’s not easy to process. For the people who can hang with you and listen to it, they’re your people. My friends group, I have some of my longstanding friends. But a lot of my tribe now are newer people who came in when I was in the midst of the story. Or post the story and were okay with me telling and retelling it.

And visiting it as I need to. My family not as much. My ex’s family, I suspect they knew about the behavior. Because it didn’t start during my marriage. It started in his tween or teen years, and I think they’ve been covering for him. They’re a family with some social status and money. They’ve funded all his lawsuits in the family court, all his federal trial, an appeal, and whatever legal steps he’s taking right now.

They supported him, and in fact his parents, petitioned me for visitation of the kids. They were already taking steps before he was even arrested. So to me that said, they knew I had his computer. And it was only a matter of time before I figured out what was on it and before something happened.

So they pursued visitation rights, got them. And the opening questions when I was cross examined at his federal trial were about how I was keeping the grandchildren from their grandparents.

My Husband Has No Empathy: Ongoing Accusations & Letters

Norine: Because the whole narrative for him was that I was a vindictive spouse who just wanted the kids and money and to make his life miserable.

Anne: So this was at the federal trial for his child sex abuse material case. They brought up that you were withholding the kids from the grandparents because you were vindictive, to blame you. Is he still doing the, you set him up?

Norine: Yes. I mean, he hasn’t actually said those words. He sends bimonthly letters to my children and still says, I’m pursuing this aspect of my case again. It’s going back to the courts and they’re looking at it, and they passed the first step, which is important because it shows that I’m telling the truth. The way I read it, it’s plausible deniability.

Well, you can’t prove beyond a doubt that it was me, because it could have been her because she knew this password. Or he’d make up lies just to make it seem as if I could be responsible. He keeps insisting they have not proven that I did not know it was there, that I didn’t put it there. That’s because I had a shared computer and we shared passwords, It could be me. So he’s not let go of that no. My husband has no empathy.

It puts my children in this position. We can talk about my children. It’s, you know, I’m laughing now, now I’m in this laughable space. But my kids are in this, and this is not funny, unfortunately. Because he blames me, and it’s on public record. As is his infidelity. He’s putting my kids in the position of having to believe one or the other of us, because it’s either or.

Anne: Ugh, it’s a nightmare. It’s a nightmare.

He’s Currently In Prison & Future Concerns

Anne: So he’s currently in prison. How long will he be in prison?

Norine: Another two and a half years, roughly. A little bit more than that.

Anne: And I imagine that for the moment you’re like, okay, we have a little break. But you have anxiety and worry about him getting out.

Norine: Exactly. And I thank you for validating that. And I think that’s where the friends network breaks down a little bit. Why do you keep worrying about this? Why don’t you just live your life? Worry about that later, you can’t predict the future, so many things. And I don’t live in that moment every single day of my life. But I have to be prepared for it, because there’s no doubt. This is his entire life right now, standing by that he’s innocent and planning to come out and be super dad.

Anne: Oh, it is. It is really, really rough. So in addition to your justifiable concern and worry about when he gets out of prison. How has his behavior affected your children in other ways? Because your husband has no empathy.

Norine: He sends letters. Every other week, the court ordered he’d be allowed to do that. But his letters are so out of a fantasy world that it’s confusing for them. He talks about going to the beach and how he has neighbors. And he had this special meal for dinner and all these wonderful things happening. It’s a sanitized version of reality that’s confusing for them. Because they say, doesn’t he know that we know where he is?

It’s threatening to pull them into his way of being. That’s not healthy. So we have to work against that when we’re living as a family or working with their support system.

Moving Forward & Keeping Privacy

Norine: And then unfortunately, it’s perhaps forever unknown whether he actually harmed them in any way. They were fairly young, and I’ve had dealings with child protective services who have investigated this. So my kids have been put through that too. Because my ex husband has no empathy.

A positive is that we’ve moved a couple of times since this all happened. So we no longer live in the town where this took place, and they were young enough that their friends weren’t talking about it at great length. There’s a chance they can keep it private in their school and friend circles if they so choose. So that’s a positive.

Anne: Oh, it’s really sad and disheartening to realize that the justice system is more about the rights of perpetrators than protecting victims. Making sure the victims are safe is not high on the priority list. So I’m so sorry you got that sort of hanging out there in space. When was your divorce final?

Norine: It took a while. I filed and then worked on the marriage for another year, and it finally was finalized. I don’t know what compelled him to sign the paperwork, because part of his profile is also to be demand avoidant. And I don’t know if he wanted to look good for the courts. But he finally let me go. So it’s completely done. It took so long, in part because my attorney advised to wait until we found out the outcome of his trial. Before we moved to finalize things.

When My Husband Has No Empathy: Experiences Of Dating After Abuse

Anne: So since you’ve been divorced and dating again, can you talk about how your experience with abuse and betrayal, and also the nightmare of the court system. How have your experiences affected your dating life?

Norine: Yeah, I’m vigilant. As, as one would be, and probably many of your listeners are, if they’ve stepped into this realm. I’d look for signs. The signs of abuse pop out. I’ve come to be an expert at reading a dating app profile for red flags. But even so, I would say I’ve ended up in personality disorder relationships.

So I stepped back when I found myself in those situations and took a break, because I had to be honest with myself. And say, I didn’t have a baseline for what a normal relationship was like because we started our relationship in college. So I entered the dating realm for the first time as a true adult.

I remember having this moment at the time. I was given estimates of what content was on his computer, and they’re saying 50 to 100 thousand images. And I looked at my therapist, who was a man, and I said, is that a lot? Because it was so normalized, men look at pornography. Every man looks at pornography. So it was just what men do. So that another man was shocked by what he was doing, that my husband had no empathy, was a wake up call for me.

And I had to be mindful of that. I had to learn where to set my boundaries. Based on what my expectations could be. And to learn that I could set my expectations as high as I wanted. And I did. My ex husband has no empathy, and I don’t want to repeat that.

Finding Hope In Healthy Relationships

Norine: And I am actually in a wonderful relationship right now. So I listen to these stories all the time of women who aren’t ready. And I celebrate them that they know they’re not ready. And I listened to women who are hurt again, and I hurt for them because I’ve hurt too. Anybody who wants to be in a relationship again, I want that for them because I believe it’s possible.

Anne: Yeah, when I was with my ex and I was in this pornography addiction recovery world, and helping him with his addiction, I genuinely felt like. All men are porn addicts. Now that I’m out of that and have been introduced, and I interact with many healthy men, I have more hope than ever. Personally, I don’t want to be in a relationship, but simultaneously, I agree that it is possible.

I don’t want abuse to ruin what they want and care about. So many abusers ruin their victim’s faith, for example. They want a faith in God, or a faith in anything or something. That gets ruined for them, or a belief that they could have a healthy relationship.

Norine: Yeah, I think many of us end up in these relationships because we’re kind, caring, flexible people. That want to be invested. There are plenty of other ways to invest all your kindness and love. Youand you can put it into things like podcasting, children, so many things. Yeah, but if that’s what people want, it’s absolutely doable.

Anne: Yeah, I’ve met quite a few advocates who are now married to healthy men after an abusive relationship. And one of the things they tell me, and I don’t know if you would agree, is it’s so easy. So different than when your husband has no empathy.

Marriage With A Healthy Husband Is Not Difficult

Anne: Like you don’t even know how easy it can be. That also makes me happy, because that whole marriage is work. And it has to be, I’m not saying marriage isn’t work, is sort of a way to manipulate women into thinking that a marriage has to be hard and really difficult. And rationalize when your husband has no empathy. When with a healthy person, it maybe doesn’t need to be that difficult. How do you feel about that?

Norine: Oh my goodness, that speaks to my experience so well. My partner and I joke about this. We will mock language of what the conflict might be. I bought a deck of relationship questions for Christmas, and we snicker our way through it. Because we’ve already discussed three quarters of the content on these cards.

I think it’s meant to prompt like deep conversation. We already did it on our own. And anything that delves into areas of conflict, we snicker because we don’t feel like we’re ever going to be in that position. Because we’re so open. Communication, which was the biggest challenge in my marriage, is so simple. Not like when your husband has no empathy.

I think, you know, arguing could be healthy in a relationship. I believe that, but we don’t get to that point because the communication is so good. It’s just discovering something that we all deserve, and it’s so exciting.

Anne: It is exciting, yeah. That’s good news. And I’m so happy that you found that. That’s awesome.

Tools For Safety & Communication: Our Family Wizard App, Living Free & Message Workshops

Anne: In terms of abuse in general, but also specifically with your abuser who is in prison right now. There maybe flying monkeys or others who don’t understand our situation. When our husband has no empathy. What tools and strategies do you use to keep yourself safe?

Norine: My favorite genuine tool, you’ve mentioned on your podcast and used it. I use the Our Family Wizard app to communicate with my abusive ex in-laws. That allows you to document and timestamp all communication. It’s all in one place. You access it when you want and need to, and feel safe doing so. There can never be any misunderstanding about whether a message was received, and what it said, because it’s all documented.

Anne: Yeah, for women who have enrolled in the BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. You can learn more about that at btr.org/livingfree. That builds the foundation for safe strategies, thoughts, boundaries and communication strategies. And then for women who are separated or divorced. The BTR.ORG Message Workshop teaches women how to use Our Family Wizard to their advantage.

In the Message Workshop, there are several key reasons to use Our Family Wizard. One of them is that you only have one point of entry. Where the abusive person can contact you. Because they can’t contact you on your phone or in an email. And you have everything written down and it’s all in one place, like you said.

It’s awesome. So if you haven’t checked out the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Message Workshop, you can get information about that at btr.org/message. Because it builds on the Living Free strategies, you enroll in it after you’ve done the Living Free lessons. Because they set the foundation when a husband has no empathy or other abuse.

Norine: Absolutely, yeah, so helpful.

Ex Husband Has No Empathy, Dealing With Manipulative Communication

Norine: Another thing related to communication, and I hope your listeners will understand this. This is certainly something that I struggled with a lot. I believe my ex dog whistles. So the idea that only dogs hear a certain frequency of a dog whistle, my ex will say things in letters to my children. That are designed, I believe, to get a reaction from me that no one else would see as problematic. Still, my ex husband has no empathy.

And of course, that works beautifully in the courtroom too. I would have panic attacks every time one of the letters hit the mailbox. Because I felt I had to read them, because I’m the line of defense between my children and whatever content is in this letter. But I have friends, they’re fabulous in terms of the gallows humor. I send them a copy of the letter, and we read it together.

They help me remove myself from getting hooked into that feeling of being controlled by that message. And just finding the humor in the moment. It’s a small thing, but you know, it hits my mailbox every other week. So I’m constantly dealing with them, even though I’ve exited the relationship. I still have to engage in this way, so I make sure it’s done in a way that supports me.

Anne: It is so sad to me that the justice system does not recognize that an abuser can still abuse their victim from prison. And your ex husband has no empathy.

Norine: Yes, yes.

Anne: The fact that he’s allowed, and not only allowed, but also the court protects his letters to your kids. Like you said, I’ve exited the relationship, but I am still forced to interact with him and he’s in prison.

Challenges With In-Laws Creating Chaos

Anne: If it was a stranger who had, let’s say, raped you once on the street. And then let’s say he got 15 years prison for that. If you said he writes me a letter every other week, they would be like whoa, whoa, whoa. You should not be reading those letters. He should not be sending these to you. Your ex husband has no empathy.

Norine: Exactly, I mean, he’s shored up this line of attack too. Because that’s another reason why I believe my ex-in-laws are in this picture. They have weekly phone calls with my children, and they engage in the same behavior. They have the right to send gifts, so they create their own chaos. I won’t necessarily go into that, but yeah, we all know as the abuse victims that these are tactics they use. But they fly right under the radar.

You know, I’ve also thought about this, with respect to the in-laws having access. I thought the same thing as you just said. If my ex husband and I were together and on the same page and decided our parents or in-laws were toxic. We could say, no thank you.

You cannot spend time with my children. But because he and I do not see eye to eye, my in-laws get to step in and create whatever scenario they want. My ex husband has no empathy. I feel like if I had a dog, I would have more say about what choices I make about my pet than about my children and their safety. The only hope is for our children to age out of the process. And they’re trusted to make their own good choices about their future and relationships with their parents.

Dealing With Public Exposure & Its Effects

Anne: One aspect of your story is that some of it was publicized in the news. How do you think having it in the news, even if you didn’t know people. Just knowing that it was out there, how did that affect you? And how has that had an ongoing effect on you?

Norine: There’s nothing like your partner cheating on you and then having everybody know. I’m grateful that I didn’t find that out until I had processed the possibility, and I was beyond wanting to be with him. Because my ex husband has no empathy. But it’s hard to think about my children reading it, and my almost 12 year old right on developmental target has been Google searching.

So we’ve been talking a lot about it. I had news reporters in my driveway. There was social media chatter. It’s hard to stomach. I created a healthy distance from it. But it’s so interesting to watch the people who said she shouldn’t have said anything, and she’s ruined her kids’ lives. And why didn’t she say something earlier? Which I couldn’t because I didn’t know. But it was misreported. I think that’s a hard thing, but an interesting thing because.

We’re all consumers of the news, and we read a story and pass judgment. Or don’t, I guess, but based on our life experience and what we read. And how discriminating we are in the kind of news we consume. But when you have that experience of mistruths, it shows how often the news gets it wrong. Especially if the husband has no empathy.

Believing Victims & Seeking Justice When An Ex Husband Has No Empathy

Norine: So I try to process everything I hear now, even more deliberately. But going forward, part of me wants to speak out, continue speaking out, and put the story out there. I also want to be shut down by my ex, because he certainly doesn’t think I’m speaking the truth. So I have these mixed feelings about what it means to have it be public. I want to make good use of it, but it might work against me in some ways.

Anne: I wonder when he does get out, the climate has maybe shifted a little bit in terms of the media, thank goodness. People seem to believe victims more than they have historically. And your ex husband has no empathy.

Norine: I thought it was super interesting that the jury convicted him. And I worked with victim witness specialists in the courts. They said, yeah, when the jury heard him, he’s unfaithful, and the way he was treating you. Your testimony was credible. He was not winning over many people. And they said, particularly the mothers on the jury, they saw you just trying to protect your children.

So I don’t know if the climate makes a difference, because ultimately it comes down to who’s on the jury or who’s on the judge’s bench. I think that has a lot more to do with it.

Anne: Yeah, it’s too bad that in our divorces, we don’t have a jury of moms.

Norine: That’d be fabulous.

Anne: That would be awesome.

Messages Of Support & Community

Norine: I just want to reiterate the kind of message you share on the podcast all the time. Get to safety, you’re not crazy. Something we say in group a lot. I believe you, this is happening, trust your instinct. All those things we say them over and over again. They’re powerful, say them to yourself and trust yourself. That’s ultimately how you can get to safety. So, don’t discount you.

Anne: You are amazing, and all of our listeners are amazing. You have been through the most horrific, nightmarish experiences, all of us have, so many women are in that super, traumatic time. And the wonderful thing is that as a community, we support each other. We help each other, and give each other spiritual hugs or hugs from across Apple podcasts.

Knowing that there is a whole community of women who completely and totally understand. We are all different and look different. We all sound different and made different choices. But the things we have experienced, the patterns of lying and gaslighting, deceit and blame, all of that is so similar. I’m so grateful to not be in this alone. And also grateful that as a community, we are becoming more and more healthy. We can teach our children and hopefully one home at a time. We’re making this world a better place. Even when our husband has no empathy.

Norine: Absolutely, thank you so much for having me. And for all that you do.