Every victim faces a unique moment when she has had enough, when she realizes, “It’s time to leave.”

Vicki shares her powerful story of liberating herself from an abusive marriage when she reached her own moment of realization. Vicki’s story offers a beacon of hope for survivors facing similar challenges.

If you need support learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions today.

Whether you’ve been married for days, weeks, months, or years, we want you to be safe, as you figure out if it’s time to leave your abusive marriage. As you’ll hear in Vicki’s story, her abusive ex-husband reached new and terrifying heights of violence and intimidation. When he realized she was on the precipice of change.

Victims Can Prepare To Safely Leave An Abusive Relationship By:

• Creating a safety plan with a BTR.ORG coach or local domestic violence victim advocate.
• Reaching out to safe people and letting them know the plan, and ways to offer support.
• Pack a hidden emergency bag that is easily accessible in case the need arises for a quick exit.

BTR.ORG Is Here For You

For those currently on the path to freedom and figuring out when it’s time to leave, Vicki’s story is a testament to resilience. It reinforces the message that leaving an abusive marriage is courageous, requiring careful planning, support systems, and commitment to one’s safety. Vicki’s journey serves as an inspiration for victims taking the first steps toward reclaiming their lives. You are not alone, and there is strength in breaking free. Consider attending a BTR.ORG Group Session today.

Transcript: This Is How You Know It’s Time To Leave – Vicki’s Story

Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We are going to call her Vicki. She is going to be sharing her personal experience, what she has been through and knowing when it’s time to leave. So welcome Vicki.

Vicki: Hi. It’s great to be here.

Anne: I don’t know if great to be here is the exact right way to put it, right?

Vicki: If it’s going to help anybody, then yes.

Anne: Yes, and going through what you’ve been through is terrible. But a lot of victims who come on the podcast to share their experience find it like a step on their journey. To peace, in that they can share their story with a community of women who get it and benefit from it. So we’re grateful for you taking the time to share today. So let’s start at the beginning of your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?

Vicki: No, I mean, of course, at first he was Prince Charming, you know, so there wasn’t anything to notice at first. Then shortly after we married, I noticed things that I was like, I’ve never seen that before. Where did that come from? But this went on for a while, for months and years without me being able to say, wait a minute, that’s not okay. That’s totally abusive. So I definitely did not recognize it.

Anne: How did you define these? I’ll just put in quotes, “strange behaviors” or things that you were like, I don’t feel good about that. How did you define that behavior at the time? What reasons did you give?

Excusing Abusive Behavior By Blaming Others

Vicki: Well, I just thought he had a lot of bad things happening to him through no fault of his own. So he was discouraged, and it made him touchy. And so in my mind, I was like, well, after all this behavior is understandable. He’s demoralized because of these tough breaks he keeps experiencing. And, I just excused it. And later, I found out that all the things I called tough breaks were literally just consequences of his choices and behaviors.

Anne: But you didn’t know it at the time?

Vicki: Oh no, no, he kept everything so covert and hidden from me.

Anne: Okay.

Vicki: Yeah

Anne: Let me guess, one of them is getting fired from a job?

Vicki: Oh yes, that was definitely one of them, on more than one occasion. He went through ten jobs. And every single time it was because there was a “departmental restructuring.” Or his boss was a horrible jerk, and it was time to leave, or something like that. It was definitely not due to behaviors he was doing on the job, on company time with the company computer. It was definitely not that.

Anne: I mentioned in another interview recently. The situation usually begins for them, in their head, on with what other people do in response. It doesn’t start with them. So they do something wrong. You know, they use pornography on their work computer, and then their boss starts treating them “badly,” maybe because they’re like, you’re a bad person.

He Was Fired From His Job Repeatedly & Abusing Me

Anne: When I say “badly,” I’m putting that in quotes, like you’re not a good employee. It’s time to leave. And that’s where they start the story. The story starts with my boss started looking at me weird, treating me bad. And not giving me projects, and then it was time to leave and fired me.

Vicki: Right. And I have no idea why.

Anne: Yeah, it usually starts after what they’ve done and the beginning of how someone else is responding to their behavior. But what about his behavior toward you? Was it still like that he’s stressed out? Can you talk about how you felt about his behavior toward you?

Vicki: He was just mean and super impatient, and would just rage constantly. And I recognized it was harsh, overreacting, or having a tantrum. But I didn’t say that to him. Because if I did, he would punch me, and that happened. And yet I didn’t recognize that carefully avoiding punches. By keeping my words at a minimum and not defying him, I didn’t recognize that was abuse.

So if you said to me, does he physically abuse you? I’d be like, no, no, because I knew how to keep him from doing that. So when I tried to call him out on inappropriate behavior, he would yell, shut up. And sometimes I didn’t shut up, no, I’m not going to shut up. That’s not okay. And of course, since I didn’t shut up, then I would get the warning that what was going to come next. And so I would shut up.

Anne: Did you recognize that as abuse?

Vicki: No, I just thought he had a bad temper. I did not ever identify that as abuse.

Family & Community Perceptions: Moving Because It Was Time To Leave

Anne: Physical abuse never happens without emotional and psychological abuse, right? So you’re being abused.

Vicki: That was much more severe than anything physical, right.

Anne: So you’re emotionally and psychologically abused for sure. Which you don’t realize. You’re also physically abused. Which you don’t realize, especially because you are so abused, you’re doing exactly what he wants. So he’s resorting to the physical abuse less because he’s threatened you with it, right?

Vicki: Right.

Anne: So the threat is keeping you in line enough, I guess. But nobody else in your family knew about it, or they didn’t recognize it as physical abuse either?

Vicki: My extended family, no. My children, yes, they all knew.

Anne: Okay.

Vicki: Yeah, like I said, all my neighbors, church members, and family members looked at us as a cute, ideal family. You know, they’re so great. They’re such a nice couple. That’s all they saw. And we would move so often that I never had a support group in the neighborhood. And all they would see was the surface stuff. But as soon as anybody started getting onto him, we would move, it was time to leave. He would uproot us immediately.

Anne: My ex did that too. When we were together, we moved six times in five years. I think he knew people were onto him, maybe I didn’t know that, but I think he did. I think that a certain type of abuser wants to move frequently. Because they want to make sure they can keep that mask on, right? So he was one of them.

Discovering His Pornography Addiction

Anne: In terms of church, was he like, “upstanding?”

Vicki: Yes

Anne: Did the church view him as an upstanding member? Like, did he get leadership roles?

Vicki: He was in a leadership calling. He wore his suit and tie like a badge. That was his disguise. He had most of the people completely fooled. Looking back now, I can see sometimes how people reacted to him, and I’m pretty sure there were some people who didn’t fall for it, but I did. Until the end, the fog started lifting.

Anne: Were you aware of pornography use?

Vicki: Not until after I left, it escalated to a point where my adult children did an intervention. And after that, my daughter took me to a therapist she had seen. He said, you know, your husband is a pornography addict, right? And I was like, no, that’s no way.

He’s so opposed to that. He thinks that’s just a terrible thing. And he’s like, no, no, he is really. So we had two computers, and my son, who is a programmer, ran programs and found deleted files. And there was evidence on both computers. And I was like, are you kidding me? I realized how many lies by doing all the back research. I realized how many lies I had been told the whole time.

Anne: How long was your marriage?

Vicki: It was 30 years almost.

Anne: And when did you get married? How old were you?

Vicki: I was 19. Yes. He groomed from day one. He used a tricky tactic to make me think he was Prince Charming.

Managing Abuse & Fantasies, Not Knowing It Was Time To Leave

Anne: So as he’s using porn without you knowing. I mean, you know that you have to walk on eggshells to avoid abuse. Not knowing that you’re being abused the entire time. Can you tell us more about the types of things you did to “manage” his abuse?

Vicki: It’s really sad, and I did not even realize this. It’s so funny, because I literally would fantasize about him being dead. And how easy it would be to raise eight kids all by myself with him being dead. And that didn’t even clue me in to something amiss.

I don’t know. I would be like, why do I think that? That’s so dumb of me. I justified it by thinking, but he’s so tortured. And it’s okay for me to not want him to continue to go through this, you know, existence, with such torture for him. And yet he wasn’t being tortured at all. I was. I didn’t know it was time to leave.

Anne: You were, he said he was tortured from what? Like he was abused as a kid, or his dad didn’t love him, or what?

Vicki: Yeah, because he lost jobs. Every person in his sphere didn’t treat hin like he was stellar all the time.

Anne: He wasn’t getting all the stuff for free he thought he was entitled to, right?

Vicki: Yeah, what I did that was so sad. I had my kids trained, Hey guys, dad’s going to be home, you know, everybody just has to not fight. We can’t have this, you know? And like, I had them all like trained little walking on eggshell kids. Because they knew they would get hurt if there was any problem.

Realizing The Extent Of The Abuse

Vicki: I spent my entire marriage to make him have his life exactly how he wanted. I mean, I’d have the dinner on the table. Whatever he said he wanted to do, we would facilitate that ASAP. Nobody else was allowed to have a want or need. If anyone expressed a want or need, they got, oh, you’re so selfish. You’re so needy, and you’re such a drama queen. You’re just on and on.

Anne: Do you realize how capable you are and how amazing you are that you were actually able to do that? I hear women say this, like, so I had dinner on the table, and so I had this and this done. And I’m like, oh wow, you guys are amazing.

Like I was the world’s most incapable victim, apparently because I could not pull it off. You know, I am like, so in awe of how talented, dedicated, and just hardworking women are. And then saddened to see, and you too, right? All the lost time, your strengths, your talents, and your effort were exploited for an abuser.

And so that’s what the painful part is. It’s not that like, you’re ashamed that you worked hard. Or that you’re ashamed that there is a little bit of this shame, I think, that women carry. Once they realize that these good things about them were exploited for the use of an abuser, rather than for your own life, for yourself. And that lost time is like difficult to grieve.

Vicki: Yeah. And that’s the sad thing. I’ve been safe for years, several years, and I’m still going through so much grief. Little things will trigger. And just be like, oh, I just hate that I was so gullible, and didn’t know when to leave.

Feeling The Need For Permission To Leave

Vicki: Or I hate that now my kids are struggling as adults because of their trauma from me. You know, instead of being like, no, you’re not going to treat my kids like that. You’re out of here. I didn’t do that. It was like, okay, now you guys have to manage your behavior and not be a kid. It was on them.

Anne: Yeah. It is so painful. I’m so sorry. I want to like reframe it and be like, you were so strong and so brave. You were doing everything you knew how to do. You didn’t know anything else. If someone, an angel. would have come down from the heavens. And said Vicki, “This is abuse, stop doing this.” You would have done it.

Vicki: Yeah, I would have.

Anne: Yeah, you didn’t know.

Vicki: When someone finally did say that to me, I left. Like, I never returned to the house once after that. I was done. It was time to leave. So, I just had to get permission from somebody I believed had authority, who happened to be a therapist. This was part of the intervention. This is what I realized. I was like, you’re mentally ill and scary. I can’t live with you anymore.

You’ll need to go into some kind of residential treatment program. I thought there was such a thing as that. I don’t know, because you can’t come home with me in your current state of mind. And so he drags us down to this counseling office, and just without an appointment starts yelling at all the staff and saying, “She won’t let me go home until I see a therapist.”

Taking Action for Safety & Deciding If It’s Time To Leave

Vicki: And there was thankfully a lady there willing to talk to him. And she got him in another room filling out intake paperwork. And then she told me to run for my life, it is time to leave. She said, he’s not okay, go. And that’s the last time I was with him. So I just had to have one person tell me that it was okay to go.

Anne: Wow, there’s so much there, that type of action. Not necessarily that specific thing you did, but taking action to get to safety. So we can get enough space to see our husband’s true character. It’s so important. This is why I developed the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. So if you’re listening to this and thinking, how do I know if my husband is that scary?

Vicki, when did you realize all your hard work and all the things he had manipulated you to do weren’t working out? Like, so an abuser would be like, well, if you would only do this, this and this, everything would be good. And because they’re liars, they always move the goalposts.

So if he’s like, you’ve got to have dinner ready by five. Then you do all the things, and then he’s still acting terrible. And then he says, well, and you have to lose weight and work out. And, you know, I don’t know all the things he says. There’s never a time where he’s like, “Oh, good. Yeah, you did do that. Okay, now I am happy. Now we’re great.” That never happens with an abuser.

Vicki: No.

Gradual Realization About A Bad Relationship

Anne: In essence, we’re believing these promises, like if you do this and do this, things will be good. And they never are. When did it come to the point where you realize, wait a minute, there’s nothing I can do that will manage him or make him happy? Was that the same point you thought he was mentally ill? Or was this before?

Vicki: Probably, I mean, it was several months. He had lost another job. When he had gotten that job, he said to me, “This is the last job I’m ever going to get.” And I was like, and so what’s your plan after that? And he was like, I don’t have one.

I’m just not doing this again. If I lose this job, I’m not getting one again. So then when he lost that job, I remembered what he had said back then. And he was worthless. I started realizing there was zero motivation for me to remain in that relationship, because it was all for him and nothing for me.

So that was kind of me coming out of the fog. I was like, why am I doing this? No sane woman would put up with this. And then I’m like, well, you’re sane. So why are you putting up with it? It took me several months. Of just gradually realizing that there was nothing for me in that relationship. So when it came to the point where he was so scary and threatening me and everything that I was totally able to just be like, okay, bye.

Anne: So he was losing jobs all the time.

I Worked & He Didn’t Contribute

Anne: Were you working?

Vicki: I stayed at home until my youngest went into first grade. And then I was working 35 hours a week at their school. I was the only one working. And he was staying home, “looking for jobs” month after month. Then he’d get a job, then he’d lose it.

Anne: So you were consistently working, and he was going back and forth?

Vicki: Yeah. And you know, when I was a stay at home mom, I did things at home to earn money as well.

Anne: At this point where he doesn’t even show any interest in getting a job again, you’re like, wait a minute. He’s not contributing to the household income, not doing things around the house. He’s not even helpful and just mean. So I’m done. It’s very sad to me that you lived with this for so long, and you just didn’t know, like no one told you it’s time to leave..

Vicki: No.

Anne: I am shockingly blunt with people. And so I often tell women that they’re being abused. And many times it’s like in real life, they haven’t come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

They weren’t searching. And so they do not like me because they’re like, who is this lady? My husband’s great. I don’t know what her problem is. The reason I do that is because I feel like many women are in your situation. And it was mine too. The second someone told me that, I was like, oh. And had someone told me sooner, I would have done something about it sooner.

Therapy & 12-Step Programs: Time To Leave, Walking Out On Harmful Advice

Anne: I just didn’t know. I was shocked that I had spent seven years going to therapists in the pornography addiction recovery industrial complex, including 12 step groups. Yeah, and no one said anything. I mean, they mentioned every once in a while, but it just did not click that this is abuse.

Anne: Did you talk to clergy? Did you ever go to therapy before?

Vicki: No, therapy was completely a taboo subject.

Anne: So you couldn’t even go by yourself?

Vicki: No, oh no, no, no that was completely not allowed. And any suggestion of me wanting him to get help or take medicine or anything like that would invoke rage.

So no, I had zero therapy before. I knew nothing, never read a self help book. I knew nothing about what I was going through until after. Now I have read pretty much everything that could be found. I have a comment about the 12 step recovery. So like right after, of course, the clergy was like, yeah, you should go to this.

You know, if that’s what you were dealing with, you should go to this.

Anne: Pornography addiction, you mean?

Vicki: Pornography addiction recovery, right. For the wives, you know, because the divorce wasn’t final or anything. And I guess they thought maybe it would heal the relationship or something if I did. But I went to two sessions. And on the second one, I literally walked out when the facilitator said the words, sisters, we can love them into changing.

Anne: No.

Vicki: And I was like 30 years of blood, sweat and tears.

Anne: No.

Vicki: If that wasn’t enough love to make him change, then no, don’t ever say that. And I was done. It was time to leave.

Dangerous Misconceptions About Abuse

Anne: That poor woman doesn’t realize that that is exactly what the abuser wants her to think.

Vicki: Yep.

Anne: She is exactly where he wants her. Because if she thinks love, service, and stuff will help him change. He can exploit her all he wants.

Vicki: Yep.

Anne: It is so dangerous. It is one of the most dangerous things to say to a victim of abuse. I’m glad you walked out. Good job. So the therapist says to you, just someone you randomly meet that your husband drives to, and starts yelling at. This is a crazy story, Vicky. You didn’t know it might be time to leave.

Sorry, I’m like, wow, this is God intervening in a serious way. She’s like, run for your life. And you never look back. What about the intervention? When did the intervention with your kids take place?

Vicki: The night before the incident at the therapist, he took my phone away. He locked me in my room and put me on a chair, and was basically like, if you try to stand up, you will be hurt. I was being held hostage in my room, so I couldn’t call for help. Then he told me the ways our lives were going to be ended, etc. And, so …

Anne: Whoa, whoa, whoa, ended like he’s gonna kill you?

Vicki: Yeah, it was pretty much that. I mean, he didn’t say it in that exact way, but It was like, if you died at the same time as me, how would that make you feel?

Anne: Huuuuh!

Vicki: Things like that. So, I was just crying and crying. And my daughter, who could not reach me, knew he was being crazy and scary.

Police Intervention & Immediate Aftermath

Vicki: So she called the police, and they came and did a welfare check. And of course he goes to the door. How is there a problem officer? And they go, well, we just got a call that there might be a problem here.

Where’s your wife? They made him go get me out. And of course, it looked like I had been crying for 12 hours straight. So the woman took me in one room, and the man took him in the other room. And basically after that little small interview, separate interview. They said, okay, you can either go in the police car in handcuffs to the police station. Or you can go in an ambulance to the psych ward.

You pick, and of course he picked the ambulance to the psych ward, then he was there for just a few hours and they let him go. So I don’t know what happened in the psych ward. Nobody talked to me.

Anne: You know, there’s no diagnosis for abuser in the DSM.

Vicki: As it turns out.

Anne: Yeah, So what are they going to do? Diagnose him with being an abuser? And tell you it is time to leave?

Vicki: Yeah.

Anne: So they let a dangerous person.

Vicki: Yeah.

Anne: But the system is so messed up.

Vicki: Yes, it is.

Children Step In To Help When It’s Time To Leave

Vicki: But when that happened, my adult kids were like, okay, we’re getting her out. And when they found out that he was dragging me to the therapist, one daughter was at my house packing bags.

Anne: Okay.

Vicki: And another daughter was getting the three minor children to safety. Another, you know, son was doing this. They all…

Anne: Jumped into action.

Vicki: Yes.

Anne: Good for your kids. They knew when it was time to leave.

Vicki: And I didn’t know, but the son that was with me, because there was my son, myself, and my ex at the therapist. He took me away, and we left car keys, for the other car in the parking lot, at the desk. And then we just left. And I did not know at the time that they were abducting me, but I never went back to my house, ever.

Anne: That’s good.

Vicki: After that, my brothers moved me out of that house.

Anne: So Vicki is intelligent, normal, you’re not perfect, right? But you’re an intelligent, capable woman with two brain cells to rub together. Congratulations. And This crazy event of kids getting involved and him driving to the therapist and screaming around is the first time that you register that you’re being abused.

This says nothing about you and says everything about the state of women being educated about abuse,

Vicki: Right.

Anne: Because had you been educated about abuse, you would have known. So that’s why I do this podcast is to get the word out. Like, this is what abuse is. This is what it looks like, because the second you realized it, you could take action. It’s so important for women to know what’s going on, to know the truth.

Vicki: Yes.

Getting Protective Orders & Legal Advice

Anne: Were you able to get a protective order? Cause he was being whack-a-doodle.

Vicki: Yes, we all got protective orders.

Anne: Okay. That’s great. When it comes to divorce and custody, I always recommend you go with the criminal route. Because criminally, with a protective order, with other criminal processes that the justice system can take. They are more reliable for keeping victims safe and helping when it’s time to leave. Even though it’s not perfect, and even though it doesn’t always work.

Vicki: Right.

Anne: It’s just more reliable than divorce. I’m not saying don’t get divorced. If your divorce attorney says, no, no, no, don’t get a protective order, because then it will be harder to divorce him. A lot of divorce attorneys say that. I’m like, no, no, no, get the protective order. Get it, yeah. Because then if he breaks it, you can call the cops. They will actually take action. And if he breaks it, they can do something about it. They don’t always do something about it.

Check and see what the laws are in your area. If the police are reliable, you know, that kind of thing. Even if in a divorce court, they say, “Hey, you can’t go to her house.” There’s no way for the civil side, the divorce side, to enforce it. And since it’s not enforceable because it’s just a civil decree, that means nothing. The criminal stuff will always keep you safer.

Vicki: I agree.

Anne: So because you guys had protective orders, did you get full custody of the kids or did he still have some custody?

Challenges With Clergy & Community When It’s Time To Leave

Vicki: I did, and part of that was because he was unemployed and because I had the protective order, etc. I got legal services, and he didn’t have it, so he didn’t fight me, and that’s how I got the custody. So I feel really grateful for that, because he later tried to come back and get it, but never did.

Anne: That’s good. Wow, during this time, you know, you’re being abused and you’re telling people you had some bad experiences. It sounds like with clergy where they were like, wait, wait, let’s get him help rather than your safety is our top priority. Can you talk about that?

Vicki: Thankfully, the first clergy I talked to didn’t say that. He was like, “Just promise you’re never going back to him.” And all he knew was the one last little incident. So that was super helpful. After that, there were several clergy who treated me like I was a pariah, because I had done the unthinkable, which is to abandon my marriage.

And I didn’t get help from those, but I had already decided it was time to leave the marriage by the time this was happening. So they were just chastising me after the fact.

Anne: That is awful. I’m so sorry. I had one of my bishops, clergy, tell me that I was the abusive one for going to the doctor to get medical care for him physically spraining my hand.

Vicki: Wow.

Anne: Like, I was the abusive one for saying he was abusive, apparently. I was like, okay, wow. That’s fun.

Vicki: Mind blowing,.

Anne: Yeah, it’s insane. How long ago was this?

Vicki: It’s been over a decade.

Anne: You’ve been relatively safe? Did he just, leave you alone after?

Vicki: Oh, no, no.

Post-Divorce Abuse Continues

Anne: Okay, so let’s talk about post divorce abuse.

Vicki: Yes, it’s interesting how much an abuser can still abuse when the entire family has protective orders, because we still had a house to sell and a divorce to do. And I thought parent time, you know, and all this stuff, I couldn’t just have no contact whatsoever. And so I just put in the protective order that we could have email contact.

About the business things only. Well, he violated that. First, before I told him that I was divorcing him, it was all you know flowers and roses. And you know, when can I come back, and when are we getting back together? And all that stuff. But then as soon as I told him that I was done. Then it turned to hostility and tons of preachy gross stuff.

Anne: Spiritual abuse, kind of stuff.

Vicki: Yes, oh, so much. Every scripture, everything telling me what a terrible person I was. It was so awful. And I put up with it for months, even after pretty much everything was all taken care of and I didn’t need to anymore. Finally, other people talked to me and they were like, you knew it was time to leave. Why do you even still talk to him?

And so I finally did, just cut off all contact. But it did not stop him. Because once he lost that outlet, he figured out so many other ones. Including my parents, who eventually had to get a stalking injunction against him. He stalked the kids at school.

Legal System Failures: Knowing It Was Time To Leave

Vicki: He was arrested several times for violating the protective order, but it didn’t stop him. He used court as much as possible to traumatize us. So I was constantly in fear. I mean, it wasn’t fair, it was going to happen. Fear of being served new orders, you know, a new process that I had to appear in court.

Anne: It’s sad that the court does not realize they are an extension of abuse. Yeah, they should be like, this man is abusing her through filing things with the courts.

Vicki: Yeah.

Anne: Like, in other cases, they can just throw it out and be like, we’re not doing this. But they don’t.

Vicki: They don’t do it, no. So until my youngest turned 18, I definitely continued to be manipulated, bullied and traumatized. Things that he would find ways to infiltrate.

Anne: It’s awful, with the death of my friend’s son. Her ex murdered her son Om. It’s interesting, because we know that domestic violence shelters can’t do much. Besides stalking injunctions and protective orders. It seems like the goal of the domestic violence shelter is to get you to admit you need to get divorced, realize it’s time to leave, and file for divorce. And then they’re like, oh great she’s on her way, right? They don’t realize the goal needs to be safety.

Vicki: Right.

Anne: And if she is not safe, and the protective order doesn’t do it, and a stalking injunction doesn’t do it. Does this man need to be put in jail?

Vicki: Right.

Anne: Does he need to be imprisoned?

Vicki: Well, he did need to, because of many other things that haven’t been discussed.

Struggles With Obtaining Legal Accountability

Vicki: He has committed crimes, and he has not served a day.

Anne: Has he ever been charged?

Vicki: No.

Anne: It’s frustrating.

Vicki: Yeah.

Anne: You know what’s happening, and other people know what’s happening. And he’s still out on the streets, harming people.

Vicki: Yeah. I was actually told by the assistant attorney general of the state of Utah. There is no doubt whatsoever that he is guilty, but you don’t have the right kind of evidence, and he’s going to get away with it.

Anne: That’s awful. I’m so sorry. Where are you in the journey to safety right now?

Vicki: Physically safe, yes. I did, of course, Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, that was super helpful. I don’t date at all. So I haven’t been able to do that. And glad I figured out it was time to leave.

Anne: It’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with you. You are healing. I don’t date, and there’s nothing wrong with me. So there’s nothing wrong with you. If you could talk to your younger self, maybe you are at like 16, what would you tell her?

Vicki: I would definitely say if something feels off, assume it is. And do not let what someone says dismiss something that feels off. Because every time I would express something being off, there would always be this perfect little explanation. That was, I feel like, rehearsed just in case. And so I would dismiss it.

I would just teach a 16 year old self, just go with what you’re feeling. Because if it feels off, it is. And then the other thing I would teach them is that we teach people how to treat us by what we tolerate.

It Is Not Compassionate To Allow Lies & Abuse

Vicki: The most important thing I learned was that it is not compassion to provide a convenient environment. For someone to continue sinning and hurting others without any consequence. That’s not compassion.

Anne: It is not your fault. It’s not your fault for “tolerating” it. Because there are a lot of people who are, I’m going to say kind, and someone makes a mistake. And then the person doesn’t continue to abuse them. He made a choice over and over again. And the only thing you lacked was one thing. It was the knowledge that what he was doing was abuse. And it was the skills to know what to do when you’re being abused. And know when it was time to leave.

So two things. Sorry, two things, but I don’t think your compassion was the problem. Because once you know it’s abuse, you know, like, oh, this isn’t going to help.

Vicki: Right, well, and the other thing is the lies. I didn’t know that he lied heavily every day.

Anne: Right.

Vicki: Had I known that the reality I lived in was a manufactured false reality. Then I could have made better choices and better decisions. But since I didn’t lie, I couldn’t wrap my head around somebody else who “cared” about me lying to me. So that wasn’t even in my comprehension.

Anne: It’s so difficult when there’s nothing you could do because you don’t know. It’s not like you knew something and didn’t do it.

Vicki: Yeah.

Anne: You did everything you could. Thank goodness when you saw it with your own eyeballs, and you knew, that you did take action. You are brave and strong.

Discovering Betrayal Trauma Resources To Help When It Is Time To Leave

Anne: How did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery?

Vicki: There was another incident of clergy betrayal. And I was frustrated. So I started searching on the internet for resources for betrayal trauma. I didn’t even know that was a term. But I was like, this is the trauma I’m experiencing. It’s the constant betraying over and over by this person and that person shouldn’t be betraying me. And so anyway, that was what I was doing, internet searches on betrayal trauma. And that’s when I found it.

I found some other good books and other resources too, but this was the one that jumped out. And it was like, oh my gosh, where was this 10 years ago? Where was this 20 years ago? You know, there was nothing to help women. And so that’s why I’m like, now I just want to get this word out. So I don’t want even one girl to go through what I did.

Anne: That’s why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I was concerned that any woman would go down the pornography addiction recovery path, rather than the abuse path. She needs to know it’s abuse, and to treat it like abuse from day one. They use pornography, abusers use pornography, it’s abusive. Even if a woman thinks he is abusive in other ways, but not pornography. The likelihood of him actually not using pornography is almost zero. You might not know, but he does.

Vicki: Yeah. I recently met a lady who said, you know, he was physically and emotionally abusive. And I’m like, yeah, he was also a pornography addict. And I figured out it was time to leave.

Anne: He was using pornography.

The Importance Of Knowing About Abuse

Vicki: If you can do the research, you would find that’s true. Yeah, I just told her he was, don’t worry about it. She goes, well, yeah, there was the one time I took his phone and he freaked out at me, you know? Yeah, exactly.

Anne: When you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, did you start listening to the podcast? Or what was your experience with BTR?

Vicki: Oh, I just started devouring the podcasts. And I would just cry and cry because I was like, oh my gosh, I’m not the only one. That’s validating and sad simultaneously. So devastating and healing, because there were so many and. It just, all the information, I was like, Oh, I just wish I had known this before.

Just over and over, and so grateful it’s there. I just hope that so many other people are finding this while they’re still in it, so they can get education about what’s happening. And figure out if it is time to leave.

Anne: I find, even post divorce, for women who are divorced and never knew they were abused. They didn’t even know pornography was happening, and they’re still struggling when they find us. I do think it facilitates healing faster. Because they realize it was abuse, and they’re like, oh yes. Because it’s again a sad commentary on the state of abuse education that a woman can be abused, get divorced from an abuser, continue to be abused post divorce and still not know she’s abused.

You have a bright future. I sense this. Would you say you have other worries, like financial or otherwise? Or is your main worry relationships?

Vicki: Yes, relationships.

Optimism & Taking Steps, Knowing When It Is Time To Leave

Anne: The reason why I hope for you is this, you seem solution oriented. Your whole marriage you didn’t know it was abuse, and you were trying to solve problems. And so now that you recognize like, wait a minute, I want better relationships. I want a good friend, just the desire, the faith, and the forward movement. Take one step, and then the next step will be revealed. And then we take the next step. And realized when it’s time to leave. You have a bright future.

Vicki: It’s comforting to have that faith. I don’t think this is as good as it gets.

Anne: Right.

Vicki: I think it’s getting better. That does give me hope and optimism to continue.

I’ve never gotten mad at God, been like, why did you give me such a creepy husband? You know, or anything like that. It’s just been like, wow, I must’ve been kind of arrogant.

Anne: No.

Vicki: When we sat down to plan my life, I must’ve been like, yeah, bring it on. I got this.

Anne: No, no, no, all you have to do is look around you. There are other arrogant women with perfectly loving husbands. So no, that was not the reason. The reason why you were abused has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with the abuser.

Vicki: Abusers, I feel like are more common. Because at work they get away with it. And more and more people are like, yeah, I could control all kinds of things. And all I have to do is be abusive.

A Bright Future Because Of Principles

Anne: They think, all I have to do is be willing to lie so that I can maintain power. So that I can maintain, like the power of information she doesn’t have. And willing to threaten people. They have to be willing to do like awful things for power, for money. You know, whatever they want to do, it’s scary.

But thank goodness there are people in the world like you. You’re not willing to lie. You are a person of principles. And you realized when it was time to leave. I hope for your future, because I just sense that you have a bright future ahead of you in this life.

I am so grateful that you took the time to share your story with us, Vicki. Thank you so much for talking with me today.

Vicki: Thanks for all the work you do with Betrayal Trauma Recovery.