Gaslighting is a calculated maneuver that emotional and psychological abusers use to keep women stuck. How do abusers gaslight? Dr. Jessica Taylor, author of Why Women Are Blamed for Everything and Sexy But Psycho talks with Anne Blythe M.Ed, about specific details with real life stories.
Abusers Use THESE PHRASES To Gaslight YOU
Wondering if you’ve been a victim of gaslighting? Dr. Jessica Taylor and Anne share some of these common phrases and conversations that abusers may use with victims to distort their reality and cause them to wonder if they’re capable of discerning truth:
- “I’ve asked our family and friends to pray for you.”
- “You’re overly emotional.”
- “You’re mentally unwell.”
- “Have you been taking your medication?”
- “Have you considered going to therapy?”
- “No one is going to believe you.”
- “No one is going to support you/like you/believe you/listen to you.”
- “I know you care about our family, and ever since you started ______ (listening to this podcast, reading this book, talking to this friend, etc), you’ve been disconnected/too “feminist”/hurting our family, etc.”
- “The light in your eyes is gone – I think you’ve lost the Spirit.”
Abusers Use THESE PHRASES To Gaslight Advocates
Advocates include YOUR family, friends, clergy, victim advocates (such as DV workers), medical care providers, and others:
- “She hasn’t been taking her medication.”
- “Please pray for her – she needs all of our help right now.”
- “She’s been acting unusual lately.”
- “I’ve done all I can.”
- “I’m worried she’s losing her mind.”
- “I’m scared she’s going to leave the Church.”
- “She’s been violent with me and the children.”
- “I think she’s cheating on me.”
- “I love her so much, I wish she’d come back to us.”
Transcript: How Do Abusers Gaslight Victims & Advocates?
Anne: I have Dr. Jessica Taylor, the author of Why Women Are Blamed for Everything. And the newly released Sexy, but Psycho, she has a PhD in forensic psychology and is the director of Victim Focus. Welcome Dr. Taylor.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Thank you so much for having me.
Anne: In America, most news will say there was a domestic disturbance. Like they were having a fight, then he killed her. Rather than saying he was abusive and killed her. And then at the bottom of that article, they’ll say, call the national domestic abuse hotline. As if calling a number, those of us who have dealt with it and are living in it. We’ve called those numbers, and it was not as helpful as people think.
Yeah. But even the reporting of it, prior to linking to it at the bottom, is misogynistic. And sort of like, the alleged or she was a part of it somehow.
Abusers Mutualize & Neutralize
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Well, I call that mutualizing, mutualizing and neutralizing. Because it’s like, you know how you just gave the example of like, they are having a fight or it is a domestic?
It reframes this whole system of power, control, and abuse from one person to the other. As this mutual, neutral almost like a relationship problem. I don’t know if you ever hear people say, “Oh it’s like six of one and half a dozen of the other.” It’s like they’re as bad as each other type narrative.
And that’s absolutely not true in abuse. The point of abuse like this is that it is systematic. It’s about power and control. And about the perpetrator getting something out of controlling, destroying and breaking down that woman. It’s not mutual, but the language, like the examples you just gave, minimizes it and trivializes it, doesn’t it?
Anne: I feel like now there are many, many women who understand this and can see it for what it is. But there are also so many women who still can’t. And therapists, institutions, court systems, and others that cannot see it. Why do you think it took so long for some of us to recognize what was happening?
Dr. Jessica Taylor: There are multiple answers to this.
Systematic Grooming, Gaslighting & Abuse From Birth
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I mean, the first answer for me is that we are groomed from birth. As women and girls, to tolerate, accept, minimize, normalize, and the violence, abuse, and power used against us.
How do abusers gaslight? It is an insidious, careful, global considered process. And it’s very successful, which means that lots of women and girls grow up in abusive households. Dads, granddads, uncles and brothers abuse them. My research has repeatedly shown that brothers and dads are likely to be the first perpetrators against a woman or girl.
And then you go on and get into these relationships. How do abusers gaslight and manipulate? These men and teenage boys, then dehumanize you, harm you, abuse you, assault you, rape you, whatever it is.
How Do Abusers Gaslight? Grooming From Birth
Dr. Jessica Taylor: You are successfully groomed from birth that it’s either normal or that if they do these things, it’s your fault. You must have caused them to do that. So you internalize it over a period of time. There is nothing to sound the alarm about. There’s nothing to disclose. There’s nothing to report, because to you, that’s your normal. That’s your life.
And lots of women listening will recognize that we have been in a situation like this. If you’ve been through this, which I assume, lots of your listeners and you and me have been through male violence. Where you don’t even know you’re in it, like you’re living in it every day, and the abuse can be life changing and yet you still haven’t really clicked in. To what it is you’re living in and how it’s deliberate.
How do abusers gaslight? It’s systematic. You know, the perpetrator, your partner or your ex wants that to happen. They’re enjoying it. They’re taking something from it. And so it takes a long time. Perpetrators often do a great job convincing you that it’s you with the problem. They will gaslight you, they will reframe you as mentally disordered, that you don’t remember things right.
That you overreact, that you’re over emotional, and that you’re hysterical. And so you often question everything that’s ever happened to you. Like, did it happen like that? Or like, am I overthinking it? Am I overanalyzing what he just said? Or like, was it as bad as I’m making out? Maybe I’ve remembered it wrong. Maybe he’s right. And I think we have created over millennia a culture of convincing women that they’re just mentally inferior and don’t remember things right.
Recognizing Emotional & Psychological Abuse
Dr. Jessica Taylor: They don’t understand things, over emotional and overreact to everything. It means we second guess everything.
Anne: Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we answer the question, how do abusers gaslight? We focus on emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. We don’t involve physical assault. Because it can, but I want to focus on emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. Because I feel it’s easier to see the physical abuse, even if you don’t understand it.
For example, if someone punches a wall you might not think you’re being physically intimidated per se or that’s physical abuse. But it is. So people can live in that. Women can live in that and not recognize it. And the emotional and psychological abuse and coercion is so difficult to see, because it’s all those manipulation tactics and deceit.
And so for so long, because you weren’t getting punched in the face or tied up or something like that. Trying to completely dismantle somebody’s reality is extremely emotionally violent, and it’s extremely psychologically abusive. And that is what is so concerning to me.
It is also concerning to me that you never have physical violence without emotional and psychological abuse. If your husband is going to physically abuse you, you can know they’ve also emotionally and psychologically abused you. It ramps up and it starts from psychological and emotional abuse.
So if women can recognize the psychological and emotional abuse, my hope is they can get to emotional and psychological safety. Which is super important, but that’s also the foundation of safety. Because if you’re psychologically safe and emotionally safe, chances are you’re also physically safe as well.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, definitely.
How Do Abusers Gaslight & Manipulate
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Because even if you’ve been physically assaulted. They’ve already set the scene for that behavior anyway through emotional manipulation and coercion. And then once they’ve committed that assault, they will then slip back into that emotional and psychological manipulation. How do abusers gaslight? They continue it. Yeah, absolutely to either cover what they did or convince you it wasn’t that bad.
Or to convince you not to tell anybody, or that you actually led them to do that. That you push their buttons. That they wouldn’t have behaved like that if it wasn’t for what you said, what you did, or all that sort of stuff.
I identify very much with what you’re saying, obviously from a professional perspective as a psychologist, but also from a personal perspective, Because the marriage I was in years ago was generally not physically abusive. There were a few incidents towards the end, and then I left, but it was actually years and years of almost total mental destruction.
And I was lucky that my coping mechanism was studying and reading books and working. I had this little escape. But I think once he figured out that was the escape, that was what he started attacking. So it was this constant like, Oh, you think you’re so clever. Why are you always reading those books?
You think you’re so good. You think you’re going to be something, and nobody likes you. You’re never going anywhere. Nobody’s gonna be your friend. Like if I ever made a new friend, it was like, oh, she probably doesn’t even like you. She should probably feel sorry for you. And it’s this constant trying to break you down piece by piece.
Personal Aftermath Of Mental Destruction
Dr. Jessica Taylor: And for many women who have also lived through that, it stays with you, that stuff, for a long time. How do abusers gaslight? This is how. You question yourself, it affects your self esteem, it affects the way you understand yourself. And it affects your confidence in your own judgment, and even things like your ambition, your dreams and your decisions.
It changes your worldview, it changes your view of self, and of your relationships. And makes you question yourself, and about people who care about you and stuff. Because somebody has, like, constantly got in your head that you’re not worthy, worthless, not good enough, stupid, ugly, or no one will ever want you.
I get what you mean, people struggle to identify abuse. If you’ve been punched in the face, or something very physical has happened, there is something very tangible about that.
How do abusers gaslight continually? When you are constantly emotionally manipulated. You’re put down, belittled, laughed at, and made to feel like you’re going crazy. It almost sometimes feels like you’ve got no evidence. Like you can’t prove any of it, and nobody’s gonna listen.
Subtle Abuse: How Do Abusers Gaslight?
Anne: For listeners of this podcast, there are some very insidious types of abuse too. I would say the type of emotional abuse you’re describing is also, I mean, it’s hard to see when you’re in it. But that can also be obvious, right? If someone says you’re stupid or ugly or something.
How do abusers gaslight? There are these subtle ways of emotional and psychological abuse. Like, I love you so much, I care about you. And I’m worried about you.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Oh yeah.
Anne: You haven’t been remembering things correctly. Or I’m concerned, because I know our family is our top priority.
And as you read these books, and in my case, many victims who listen to my podcast. Their husband will say to them, “I know you care about our family. Since you started listening to this podcast, it’s been damaging to our family.” And use subtle ways of maintaining the status quo and not having her see what’s really going on.
How do abusers gaslight? Here’s a really good example that I heard recently in my particular faith. You can say certain things, and in general the culture is like, oh, I know what’s going on. And one man called all his wife’s friends, all her family, and everyone, and said, Could you please pray for her?
She’s struggling right now with her faith. Which wasn’t true at all. But all he had to do was say that. To all the friends and family, and say, she just needs extra prayers because she’s really struggling with her faith. And, she’s feeling apart from God right now. And so she could use your help.
Weaponizing Healthy Communication With Lies
Anne: And that was so undermining, because then when she went to friends and family for help. They were like, oh, if you’re struggling with your faith, maybe that’s why you want to leave. Maybe that’s why you’re saying this stuff, because he’s such a nice guy and wants everyone to pray for you. So these really subtle ways. I am concerned with abusers who are learning. healthy ways of talking through therapy, through books.
How do abusers gaslight? They’re weaponizing it, but they sound like they’re saying the right things sometimes. And it is intended to continue to oppress women, that’s what we see here a lot. And that’s the main thing I want to warn women about.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, I think this is fascinating, because I think you’re talking about, as you say, like a level of skill here and intelligence here. From the perpetrator’s side, where they’re either learning to mirror, as you say, healthy ways of communicating. Where they’re actually weaponizing them successfully. Or they are generally quite intelligent, people anyway. So they’ve learned over a period of time that they don’t need to use physical violence to have total control.
And to completely destroy somebody and keep them exactly where they are. Because for some perpetrators like that, they know not to cross that line. They know that if they left a mark on you or did something physical, that would all give you a way out. And like you would identify what was happening, but if they can keep you in this place. That is constantly undermining you. But doing it in a way where you can’t even completely be sure that’s what they’re doing.
How Do Abusers Gaslight: Expert Manipulation Of Professionals & Systems
Dr. Jessica Taylor: That is a really difficult place to live as a woman. You know that you can’t figure out exactly what’s happening to you. Because you’re not a hundred percent sure that is happening at all. And in terms of how this relates to my work, the closest I can get to this and my experience is that I see a lot of men. That do the whole telling the family, telling the doctor, telling the counselor, I’m really worried about my wife. I think she’s struggling with her mental health.
She needs some support, and we need to be there for her, because she’s struggling at the moment. I think she should be referred into the mental health service, so that she can get the right medication. The right help and treatment. And it’s obviously all part of the manipulation. Because once you frame her as having a mental health issue, everything can be covered up.
How do abusers gaslight? Everything she says can be denied. Everything she says can be belittled or brushed away. I worked years ago on a helpline, and I remember a woman ringing. She’d been having therapy with us on and off for a couple of months, and it was going really well. She was getting ready to leave this guy, and then he turned up at the center, and the service with a secret address. I don’t know how he found us, but he did, she wasn’t actually in there at the time.
I think she might have been at work . And he turned up, and he played this sort of oh, I’m so glad I found this service. And I’m concerned about my wife, I just feel like I need to talk to one of you.
Abusive Strategies: Lies & Deceptions
Dr. Jessica Taylor: And I just need to give you this information, She’s not been taking her medication. She’s on these antidepressants and antipsychotics, and I’m worried she’s not been taking her medication. I’ve been telling her every day she needs to take it, and she’s been getting delusional. And she’s thinking things aren’t real.
I’m listening to him thinking, yeah, right. As if, I’m going to believe that. She’s lucky that he came across somebody like me, because I could see right through this guy. He deliberately set her up. So it sounded like all her disclosures to us were because she wasn’t taking this medication.
How do abusers gaslight? I knew what he was doing, and he did it in such a way, like he cried. I’m so worried about my wife, and I just want the best for her. I knew exactly what he was doing. But it worries me that so many of these perpetrators who approach it in this way are good at manipulating professionals. Aren’t they?
Anne: They are. How do abusers gaslight? The most common situation here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is that they manipulate their victim through the Pornography Addiction Recovery Industrial Complex. Which is what I call it. They’re found out for their pornography use, for example, or their affairs or soliciting prostitutes, you know, addiction therapy.
And then they start telling people, yes, I’m a addict and getting treatment. But now I’m just concerned about my wife. She also needs to get help, because she’s experienced this traumatic event in finding out that I’m an addict and needs help. And everybody’s like, oh yeah, she needs to work on her side of the street.
Manipulation Through Addiction Recovery Programs
Anne: How do abusers gaslight? She needs to go to S-Anon or COSA because she’s codependent. And then she has to go to “treatment” too for his addiction. In the meantime, she’s emotionally and psychologically abused. Trying to “care for” her husband, who is “sick” apparently. I’m using quotes for sick, because he’s got this sad addiction. And she is not seen as a victim of abuse.
Like she’s not been able to give consent for her relationship because she didn’t even know anything about this. She’s been lied to, deceived emotionally and psychologically abused the whole time. It is bad. And she’s getting that from the addiction therapist. She’s getting it from maybe marriage and family therapists. And she might also get it from clergy.
How do abusers gaslight? It just gets super hard to see what’s going on. When you have what seems like all these professionals and people who seem to care about you. Trying to hold your family together, as the glue, because you’re kind of healthy in this situation, but you’re almost as sick as he is.
And he’s not bad, he’s just sick. Okay, it reminds me of that section in The Maid, the Netflix show. When the dad is trying to say, he’s not the enemy, the alcohol is the enemy. Do you remember that part?
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I haven’t seen that, but that makes a lot of sense. It feels familiar. It’s the type of thing that you hear a lot, the example you just gave. I think that’s another way that we force women to take responsibility for men’s actions and abuse. It’s like a way of roping her back in and being like, you’re also a problem, and you need to work on this stuff too.
How Do Abusers Gaslight: Women’s Need Safety Not Accusations
Dr. Jessica Taylor: And it’s like, at what point are women allowed to go, do you know what? No, absolutely not. I’m not working on anything. This isn’t my problem. These weren’t my actions or choices. I’m not getting involved. He needs to deal with his own problems, and needs to take full accountability, which means not spreading that accountability to me.
Anne: Yes. How do abusers gaslight? This man is currently psychologically and emotionally unsafe. I need to distance myself from this. Because his continued gaslighting, lying about me, deceit and manipulation, even if it sounds nice. Is emotionally and psychologically violent to me.
It is harming me. Some pornography addiction recovery therapists, for example, will require a woman not consider divorce for a year. Until he’s been in treatment, rather than saying, okay, you’re currently unsafe. Many abuse professionals think that divorce, oh, we just got to get her out of there. And I’m like, well, that also doesn’t solve the problem.
I was severely emotional and psychologically abused post divorce for eight years, because I share kids with my abuser. And all the women listening, that’s why they’re afraid of getting divorced too.
Because they think, maybe I can manage it better, and I’ll actually be safer if I remain married. But then try to set up boundaries in marriage. Maybe I can make sure my kids won’t have to go every other weekend. My kids will be safer. So women have to make these strategic decisions about what will give them the most emotional and psychological safety.
Coercive Control In The UK vs The US
Anne: It’s really tricky when professionals, the court system doesn’t understand. The UK is way better than America in understanding coercive control. So that’s good news for you guys.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, well, I’ve got quite a lot of colleagues in the US, and we have many conversations that go along that route. Until I explain what it’s actually like here. And they’re like, oh, I see. Because a lot of it’s lip service, don’t get me wrong. The academic understanding is there. We have a definition of coercive control. It’s included in law. It’s accepted as a thing, so yes, I accept that we’ve made progress there.
How do abusers gaslight? When you actually attempt to demonstrate or prove coercive control, or you need to help a woman clearly being coerced. And if you are in a psychological, emotional, abusive relationship with somebody, you will get the same sort of dismissal. Not believing her, pushing back, reframing her as the problem. Then making her take responsibility and telling her that they need to get therapy together.
I don’t know, I think we’ve done similar things recently in the UK around misogyny. Where some police forces say, oh, we should charge these men with misogynistic crime.
Anne: Oh, like, a hate crime?
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yes, exactly. So it’s misogynistic hate crime. So that would include coercive control and domestic abuse. Essentially, they can say that the misogyny aggravates it. Then it makes the sentence heavier. It makes the system almost work better. But the problem is that all sounds brilliant, but it just doesn’t work in real life.
Combating Biases Among Professionals
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Most of these professionals, whether they’re working in family court or in police, whether they’re social workers or whoever. They couldn’t even define misogyny. Most can’t spell it. They don’t know what it looks like. They’re misogynistic themselves.
Also, and I always make a point of saying this, statistically, these professionals working in these environments are just as likely to be abused. Especially the women are going home to an abuser at the same rate as the public.
The research suggests that professionals in these roles are as likely to be abused as their clients. And that means the men in those roles are just as likely to be perpetrators as men in the general population. This means they have their own biases, experiences and issues. They have their own conclusions and self blame, which they put on women trying to get help.
Anne: How do abusers gaslight and manipulate the system? Right now I have a friend, her soon to be ex has a protective order. And her victim advocate says, “You need to report these additional crimes he’s committed.” She’s trying to get divorced from him, and her family court attorney says, “No, do not report it. Because then you’ll look bad, and it will affect your divorce negatively.” She’s getting different advice from two law professionals.
The two judges working for the same county will view her domestic abuse completely differently. Though they work for the same county, and both are supposed to be on the side of justice.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, this happens in the UK as well. The way you’ve just described that, if somebody outside our field of work listened to that, they’d be like, that’s ridiculous. That’s because it is, but that is what we’re seeing here too.
How Do Abusers Gaslight & Manipulate In Family Court
Dr. Jessica Taylor: So it’s this sort of like, don’t bring up the abuse, don’t report the abuse when you’re going through the divorce. Or the custody type hearings or child contact hearings, because it’ll make you look bad.
It makes you look like you’re accusing him, and it’s going to make everything harder. But, you have a right to report that stuff to keep you safe and if you wanted to. And it’s appalling that you have to almost play a game to try and keep you and the kids as safe as possible, which could actually mean you can’t even report what you have a right to report.
It’s, it’s just wild. And like you say, these are judges sitting in the same areas. In the same courts, we are supposed to work towards the same aim, which is justice, safety and protection. It’s impossible to do this. While so many women are terrified of going through, as you say, the divorce process, a custody process, a family assessment process. Because they know that their ex or partner will successfully manipulate every professional in that case.
Anne: These types of abusers do not respect civil divorce decrees. They just do whatever they want, because if they don’t do something in the civil parenting plan, for example, it’s very difficult to enforce it. Whereas a protective order or other criminal things are easier to enforce.
So my opinion is currently to report. Go with what the criminal people say, rather than the divorce people. Because the criminal prosecution and criminal action could actually have a consequence that could keep you safer than your divorce decree. That’s my current way of thinking about it.
How Do Abusers Gaslight: Parental Alienation Accusations
Dr. Jessica Taylor: That’s interesting. I would be inclined to agree on paper with what you’ve just said. I also accept how tentative you’re about it, because I get that totally. In the UK, for example, lots of women are going through this where they keep trying to tell the truth in their divorce hearings. And their child contact hearings, and things like that. Then what happens is that the whole thing gets flipped over on them, and they’re the abuser and fabricating it.
How do abusers gaslight in the court system? They make accusations of parental alienation. They accuse victims of fabricating abuse and things like that. And then suddenly those women are like, oh my God, it’s me on trial now. And I did not expect this to happen.
I’ve worked with women around the world. I worked with a woman a couple of years ago in Australia who went through exactly this experience. And then suddenly she realized this case had been turned upside down. Suddenly it was her on trial, not him.
Then they decided to remove her access to her daughter, and said she was an unsafe mom. And that she was lying about this coercive control, lying about the abuse. And that by continually talking about it, bringing it up, and trying to report it, she was actually going to harm the little girl, and all this sort of rubbish.
Anne: She was taken away from her.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: She was removed completely, and she had no access to her whatsoever. They refused to give her even contact and access. I’ll tell you about this story just because it has a good ending, thankfully. The little girl was removed just before Christmas, and I honestly thought that that woman would end her life.
A Case of Manipulation & Control
Dr. Jessica Taylor: She texted me several times and was like, “I can’t do this. I’m not living without her. I don’t know how this went so wrong. I just wanted to divorce him. And I would have been happy with shared contact. I don’t know how this happened, and it just changed her life, and he did all this out of control and spite.
How do abusers gasllight? He had no interest in being a full time parent to that little girl. Not a chance. He was a businessman, out and about all the time. He was always traveling, had absolutely no interest in that child. So he did it purely to harm his ex wife, and within a few months that child had been palmed off. To child care, nannies, nurseries, schools and after school clubs.
The kid never saw her dad, and it was only after a few months of school reporting. She’s not getting picked up, she’s not being looked after. She’s not looking well and is ill, and then he moved her out of the area. Nobody knew where this child had gone.
And I was so gobsmacked and blown away that something happened. I don’t know how it happened. The woman got a good lawyer, and they actually got that child back and fully removed from the man. So the little girl is now like eight, and they’re doing really well. They’re super happy, but the horror that woman has been put through.
Anne: And the child.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, absolutely, the little girl. And I know it took ages for the little girl to recover from all that trauma.
Abuse Recovery & Trying To Moving Forward While Still A Victim
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I remember speaking to the woman a few times, and she was like, she’s not the same anymore. I was like, you have to give her time. You’ll have to be there and give her time, because she’s been through life changing. And she, I remember her saying to me, do you think she’ll grow up and remember this?
And I said, yes, likely. It’s likely. At that age, she will have memories of all this. And she said, I hoped she wouldn’t have any memories, and she’s young enough not to have any memories. I know, I think, she will at that age.
Anne: How do abusers gaslight victims? I’m reminded of another story of a woman who had a 6 month old and was not married to the man, and actually crossed from Canada into the US to escape him. Then he fought her, fought her, and fought her, saying she kidnapped the kid and all this stuff. And was in court the whole time.
And she was terrified. So she stayed in America, and tried to fight it in court. She ended up having brain cancer and dying. And the second that she passed away, he stopped all the court stuff and didn’t want to see the daughter.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Oh my God, that’s horrific.
Anne: Yeah, so she basically, I think it was until her daughter was 11, maybe, was in court just with this awful, awful court case. The daughter would have to go and be with him in Canada for him. I mean, it was so bad. And the second that she passed away, he was like, oh, nevermind. I don’t want to see my daughter.
How Do Abusers Gaslight With Guardianship & Control
Anne: Her husband, the woman’s husband, who was a good man and was trying to help her figure it out. He is now the full time dad. She calls him Dad, and he’s the one who takes care of her. But they’ve never wanted to file for adoption or anything, because they’re just too afraid that, I think he is her legal guardian, but they’re too afraid that he’ll say no.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: How do abusers gaslight continually? He probably will. He’ll probably say no, just purely out of control.
Anne: It’s interesting though, because he works pretty well with the husband now that she died. He’s like, oh yeah, no problem. Yeah, he signed the stuff for the legal guardianship.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Is that misogyny? Or is it that he feels like he won in the end, and she died.
Anne: Because he killed her.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, if that’s what he wanted, as soon as she died, he would be like, now I get full custody of my kid that I’ve been fighting for for eleven years.
Anne: He would be on the plane.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah.
Anne: That day, like, if that were me, I’d be on the plane. Like, oh, this thing I’ve been praying for has happened. Oh, we’re finally reunited. I’m so grateful to have you.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Oh, absolutely, it is a big power game. Oh that’s an awful case. Women are just going through so much. And the system is failing them left, right, and center.
How Do Abusers Gaslight? The Core Of Abusers Is Gaining Power
Dr. Jessica Taylor: It speaks to what is at the core of emotional, psychological abuse, and coercion. It’s all about power. How do abusers gaslight? It’s all about breaking you down and being able to control you in the way they want. It makes sense that if that is the way they think, behave, and what they get out of that.
Then they will continue that, whichever way they can. And like, as you say, for those of us with children with perpetrators, which includes me. It’s very difficult. How do abusers gaslight and gain power? You realize you are attached to these perpetrators for, in some cases, the rest of your life. Because, you’ve got kids with them.
And like in a good scenario, just until your kids are like 18, 20 years old or whatever. And that you can completely cut off, but in reality, you never can completely escape those perpetrators. You’re attached to them for a very long time, and they’re perpetrators. They’re going to find ways to harm you over the years, even as those decades pass.
And you can understand the amount of trauma that causes women who are attached to these perpetrators with children. It’s years and years of trying to keep yourself psychologically safe, trying to keep yourself emotionally healthy. Trying to move on, trying to process everything that happened when you were together. And the horrible, post divorce mess that many of us have gone through. And then years down the line, there are still things that crop up.
How Do Abusers Gaslight? With Manipulation & Control
Dr. Jessica Taylor: How do abusers gaslight, manipulate and control? There are still things that they might stick their oar in or be difficult about. Just examples, like getting a passport for your child so you can go on holiday. Or like, I don’t know, the fact that your kid needs somewhere to stay for a bit. Or wants to go to a different college or university, or, you know.
And there are so many things. Or they might have a health problem and, like, you’re both, you know, required. I don’t know. It could be anything, but they will find a way to manipulate that situation so that they can play their power game all over again.
Anne: James Clear, who wrote Atomic Habits, had this quote in his weekly email blast. And I thought it related to this. He said, “Ambition is when you expect yourself to close the gap between what you have and what you want.” And, “Entitlement is when you expect others to close the gap between what you have and what you want.”
And I think that’s the heart of misogyny. They want a clean house or children, and expect women to close that gap. Instead of saying if I want my toilet cleaned or my children cared for, I need to do that. Right? I need to show up to the school and pick up my child. I need to give my child a good education and medical care. They think, I want to call the shots.
Abusers Have A Heart Of Misogyny
Anne: I want to say, these are the things I want, but then I want someone else to do all the work. I want to get what I want, and not have to actually do the thing. So had that man been able to have his wife pick up and take their daughter and do whatever he said. He would have been happy to have his daughter stay with his ex.
How do abusers gaslight and manipulate? Because she wasn’t doing what he wanted. And they weren’t acting the way he wanted them to. Then it was like, I’d rather hire someone else to do this, because he was not going to do it. If women listening are thinking, yeah, my husband wants me to be the stopgap in our “relationship,” right?
I’m the one that needs to apologize. I’m the one that needs to be compliant. And I’m the one that needs to plan the stuff and ensure everything goes smoothly. But he just gets to call the shots and doesn’t have to do the work. That is a sign that the situation you’re in is emotionally and psychologically abusive, because he expects other people to close that gap.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: It’s such an interesting quote, isn’t it? I really like it. And I think that entitlement also comes from the misogynistic belief of men as individuals. And also patriarchy as a culture that women are there to serve men. They’re there to be intimate with men. They’re there to look after men. So they’re there to care for every need of that man. And that when you step out of line, and it’s a very specific stereotype.
How Do Abusers Gaslight? The Role Of Women in Patriarchy
Dr. Jessica Taylor: How do abusers gaslight and control? You have a very specific role as a woman in a patriarchy. You know, you’re supposed to be desirable, attractive and available. But not too desirable, attractive, or available. Because then you’ve gone too far the other way into an empowerment. And there’s a term in psychology in some research around this. Around sexualization of women called sexy, but not a slot.
So it’s like, you’re supposed to be sexually available. You’re also supposed to be chaste. And you’re supposed to be everything that a man wants you to be. If he wants you to be almost like a virgin, then that’s what you are. If he wants you to be easy, that’s what you are. And if he wants you to be intimate with him every day, that’s what you are.
If he doesn’t, and he wants you to only behave in a certain way, that’s what you are. That’s also a level of entitlement. That you are supposed to fulfill the role of the inferior woman at all times. And you’re supposed to do what you’re supposed to do. That includes being domesticated, so it means cleaning for him, cooking for him, and caring for his kids. Also be the family referee, secretary, and accountant. They’re getting it from wider society,and getting it from the media.
They’re getting it from storybooks and fairy tales. Misogyny runs deep. And then we see it manifest in all these different behaviors and experiences that women and girls live through. And that sense of entitlement that you just talk about, I think, is a great way to explain it.
Historical Context Of Women’s Rights
Anne: How do abusers gaslight, manipulate and control? The book, The Woman They Could Not Silence by Kate Moore highlights this. It is an incredible story of Elizabeth Packard, who endured immense trials in the 1800s. Due to her husband putting her in an insane asylum. It is amazing. But what struck me about her story. The story of women being basically property for most of history until the late 1800s, when they abolished coverture laws.
Is that up until that point, this is like the late 1800s, women were property.
How do abusers gaslight and control? Women did not have rights. A married woman couldn’t have her own wages, property, children and everything belonged to her husband. And so at least in America, the Emancipation Proclamation to free enslaved people was in 1863. And women in America were not emancipated from their husbands until the late 1800s, like 1890s. So 30 years after the Emancipation Proclamation, women are granted freedom from their husbands.
That historical fact is very important. Just like, at least in America, everyone celebrates that emancipation date of enslaved people. Why are we also not celebrating 1891, when the state of Indiana passed a law ending coverture laws? Then I remember the biblical story of Jacob, and even in that biblical story. He works for seven years to purchase Leah. And then he works another seven years to purchase Rachel.
The history of marriage is basically you own the woman. Marriage started to shift in the late 1890s from property to partnership. I think that’s an important part of the story.
Legal Changes In The UK To Help Women
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Do you know, I was so interested listening to that because In the UK, that law didn’t change until 1975, that you just explained.
Anne: Yeah, wait, the coverture laws?
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Well, it wasn’t technically called that. How do abusers gaslight and control? Up until 1975 in the UK, women were not allowed to get a mortgage or have their own bank accounts. There was discrimination that stopped them from getting things like their own credit card until 1975.
Anne: Same thing in the US with credit cards, yeah.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, and then in 1995 or 1996, the law officially changed. So a woman didn’t have to perform what was known as wifely duties for the man in marriage. So if you were married to a man in the UK, there is no way you could be abused or raped by your husband. Because he owned you. So like you had to be intimate with him when he wanted, there was no way to report your husband for anything. Because you were his property.
The law changed in 1995. And it was only after that year in the mid 90s here that you could actually report. Or even describe your husband as raping you or abusing you. Because prior to that, it didn’t exist. I was a kid then. So like, that’s…
Anne: Yeah, me too.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: You know what I mean?
Anne: Wow, yeah.
How Do Abusers Gaslight & The Fight For Women’s Liberation
Anne: I’m all for social justice and racial justice. And I’m so happy that we celebrate the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863. But why are we not talking about this? Why, why is there not a, like, Women’s Liberation Day in the UK in 1993? When women finally were liberated from slavery from their husbands? Like, that’s crazy that there’s not, like, a national holiday for that.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I ask similar questions in that misogyny is the last form of oppressive discrimination literally ignored. There are, I think, much bigger and more accepted movements around things like gay pride and around Black Lives Matter. How do abusers gaslight and control? Feminism, women’s rights, is seen as a joke.
It’s seen as a bunch of women, they’re hysterical and emotional, and they’re moaning about everything and making out that their rights are being rolled back. It’s so interesting that we have framed women as so inferior and unreliable for so long that there is no equivalent movement.
There is no equivalent, you know, like you say. There isn’t a day that marks how important it is that women were liberated from that form of abuse. And slavery in their relationships. There is no day to mark that. Isn’t it brilliant that in the 90s in the UK, we changed the law? And it meant men could not demand intimacy whenever they wanted.
Anne: That’s literally a slave.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: That sort of change in the law in the nineties in the UK is little known. Even professionals in this field, I’ll often talk to people in the UK and they were like, really? Is that, was it the nineties? I didn’t even know that was a thing. I didn’t know that was a law.
The Lack Of Recognition Of Women’s Rights
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I didn’t know there was any change, and it’s just not spoken about. It always makes me think about that. As we said, because this is only the 90s, it’s not a long time ago, it’s less than 30 years ago. That means there are women living in those marriages at that time.
They were under that law at that time, which meant they had to give intimacy and essentially there was no consent. Was there? Because there’s no need for consent if marriage contracts require you to be intimate with a man.
Anne: How do abusers gaslight and control? The perpetrators are getting smarter. It’s because for 5, 000 years they’ve had these entitlements to intimacy and household labor. That women were made or created to serve them. And now that that’s not politically correct, the actual genetics of it. When I say that, I mean the historical traditions the way they think have not actually caught up with it.
So instead of respecting women and actually seeing them as equals. They’re like, we have to maintain this power structure somehow. Because it works for us, but we cannot be so overt about it. We have to be subtle, we have to use the right words. We have to act like we respect women, while still maintaining the ability to exploit them.
That’s why it’s very difficult when you have a professional husband who is educated and smart and wants to look good to his neighbors. He wants to show up at church and look great. He wants to show up at the community meeting and be the good guy. They will talk and act a certain way so that they maintain their power.
How Do Abusers Gaslight & Control: The Evolution of Power Structures
Anne: Because they’re not going to maintain their power if they say, “Oh, women are here to serve me.” Everyone would look at them like, what? Like that’s not right. They’re maintaining it in different ways than in the past.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: How do abusers gaslight and control? They’re learning to disguise it. They’re learning to make it sound more socially desirable and acceptable than those views and values. They’ve not gone anywhere, they’re learning how to communicate them. As you say, maintain their power and control without outing themselves.
Anne: Exactly. At the same time, I have met so many healthy men who are not this way. I know from their actions, the way they treat me, and the way I feel around them. Like for my internal warning system, that I have actually more hope for men than ever, because I see the men who are healthy, who respect women.
So that’s not to say this episode is all about how all men in the world are like this. I think another thing that hurts women is that women think all men are like this. So if they want to marry, they have to settle for an abuser, because there’s no other option.
There are healthy men out there. And the more we understand what this looks like and feels like. The more we can recognize and separate ourselves from men who are dangerous to us in emotional and psychological ways from men who are healthy. And men who can be like a good partner or friend or someone who is not going to harm us.
There Is Hope For Healthy Relationships
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Hard one, because not all men are used to derail these conversations for women. The whole like, you know, not all men are like that, and they’re like, yeah, I know I didn’t say all men, did I? I mean, like you have to go back to people and go, but I didn’t, I never said that, so. Absolutely. We’re defending a point I did not make.
Anne: Absolutely. The only reason I bring that up is because I hear many women say, well, I want to be married. And since there’s never going to be a man out there that will respect me. I’m going to stay married to this man. So that’s why I say that, but not to say it’s not a huge problem.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: There’s obviously amazing men out there. There are, like I mean, some of the people in my life that are my biggest supporters. Who are there for me through things and help me so much, have been men. I’ve still got guys in my life that have elevated me, listened to me throughout my career, everything I’ve done.
They’ve been the one at the back going, keep going. You’re amazing. You’ve got this. Like, I believe in everything you’re doing. They’ve listened, they’ve opened doors, and they’ve never ever made me feel uncomfortable. And I know 100 percent that is a safe guy. I know that I can feel it the same as you. These guys are out there.
They are, but I think that for some women, the fear of being alone and living a single life terrifies them so much. That they’re always thinking, if I leave this guy, how am I going to find someone else?
The Importance Of Self-Sufficiency
Dr. Jessica Taylor: And actually, the first thing that needs to happen is you need to be safe and well on your own.
Anne: Alone, yes.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah.
Anne: How do abusers gaslight, and control? I think that thinking that you have to have a man is a misogynistic idea.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Absolutely, it is. It means you’re always scared. of living life alone. And there’s nothing wrong with that. I know loads of women who have been through long, abusive, hard marriages. Then they get to be 50 and 60 and going, “Do you know what? What am I doing? I’m wasting years here. I’m miserable. I don’t need to do this. I could be out there on my own”, and it terrifies them.
But at some point something happens, and they say, Do you know what? Being on my own has got to be better than this. It’s got to be healthier than this. You know, it’s a big leap. It’s a big, scary jump. I had to make that, but I was much younger at 28. I remember that, and remember lying in bed and thinking, even if you are on your own for years and years and years. Or even for the rest of your life, it has to be better than living in this.
You cannot stay in this. This is awful. This is destroying you. I meet women all the time who are going through that same thought process. But you’re right, then it comes down to, but what if I don’t find anyone? What if all men are dangerous? And what if I find another perp, and then another perp, and then another perp, and the thing is, that can happen.
The Reality Of Abusive Relationships
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I think the message I would want to get across is that it has nothing to do with you. That is not your fault, that is statistically just likely. Because there are so many abusive men, you are likely to meet another one. Even if you meet him for like one date, and he turns out to be an absolutely horrible, horrible person. You could meet him literally for two hours.
Or, it’s a guy that you get into a serious relationship, and you’ve been together for a few months or years. And then you realize, Oh no, I am back in abuse. How has this happened? This guy has total control over me. How has this happened again? It doesn’t matter. It’s so common that you are likely surrounded by perpetrators. I think the fears of women who are thinking, but what if I never find a safe man to have a life with? I think they’re valid fears, aren’t they?
Anne: I agree. I am not dating and I don’t want to date. I mean, if somebody came along, that would be fine. But my thinking, what if I can’t find a healthy man, is not even in my brain. There’s no worry in my mind or heart that I, “Won’t be able to find a healthy man”. If I don’t find one, great!
I’m fine. I’m happy. I love being a mom. My kids are amazing. I love my career. I have really good friends, even just seeing the word romance gives me like, a little bit, it’s like a little bit creepy for me.
Living A Fulfilling Life Without A Partner
Anne: I’m just not that interested in it, but I would be interested in a partner if that person came my way. I do think women put themselves in danger when they think it’s a need. When they think it’s something that if they don’t get it, they’re somehow missing out. Because you can have a beautiful, wonderful life with amazing relationships with people that are intimate. But like, my relationship with my kids is beautiful, and my sister and my friends.
And I appreciate that. So I just don’t want any woman out there thinking I need a man, or I’m not going to find one. You don’t need to find one. You can stand on your own two feet, and meet your own needs. And you can also meet other people, because you need people. You do need friends. You do need relationships. Finding a healthy partner is so overwhelming. That just seems impossible, that’s why I’m like, I’m not going to worry about that.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: I’m not surprised at all.
Dr. Jessica Taylor’s Books
Anne: This conversation has been amazing. Dr. Taylor has three books. They’re all available on Amazon. Check them out. Listeners may be the most interested in The Indicative Trauma Impact Manual, which can help you figure out yourself as a trauma survivor. You are responding to the abuse that you may experience, and that might help you reframe or understand your responses to abuse, rather than thinking that it somehow has something to do with you. Or that you’ve caused it.
So that is The Indicative Trauma Impact Manual. Her other two books, which are also on Amazon, are Why Women Are Blamed for Everything and Sexy but Psycho. Dr. Taylor, thank you so much.
Dr. Jessica Taylor: Yeah, thank you so much for having me and listening. And yeah, it’s been awesome. So thank you. And I’ll talk to you again.
I’m a huge fan of Dr. Jessica Taylor’s work, and when she said this it really resonated with me: “my experience is that I see a lot of men. That do the whole telling the family, telling the doctor, telling the counselor, I’m really worried about my wife. I think she’s struggling with her mental health.”
My physician ex husband tried to bear false medical witness against me like this when he filed for full custody, claiming I had postpartum depression – luckily, I have no mental health history whatsoever i. My medical records and was able to defend myself in court by showing an absence of any psych meds etc. Then two years later, my ex got fired from his job and moved away from our kids without obtaining the court’s permission first, so he left me with full physical custody at that point. These abusers are all about power-over and control, and keeping up the appearance of being a normal dad for their community, and will lie about anything they can get away with just to “win” and punish the mother of their kids.