You didn’t get married, believing your husband would betray you with pornography. But when you catch him, how to know if my abusive husband is changing? Now that you have the words for his behavior and what he’s been doing to you for so long. Perhaps you still hope for reconciliation. Perhaps you, like Claire, this week’s guest on the podcast, hope he can change.

If you want to discuss this with other women, learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Support Sessions.

“How long has it been since you’ve thought a misogynistic thought? How long has it been since you thought, Oh why doesn’t my wife wipe off the table? What’s her problem? Instead of being like, oh the table needs to be wiped off, I’m going to get a rag and wipe it off because I’m an adult and I live here.”

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

A man who is changing from an abuser to a healthy person, will, for a long period of time, consistently reject misogyny.

This means that he will:

• Not expect or ask others to cook, clean, or “take care” of him.
• Not expect, ask for, or coerce you or others for sex.
• Clean up after himself and others, taking on household and yard tasks without being prodded, asked, or encouraged.
• Avoid organizations and situations where misogyny and patriarchy are systemically significant.
• Reject patriarchal leadership roles.
• Forfeit financial control and take proactive steps to learn how to have a mutual financial partnership

Heathly Men Don’t Exploit Women

Healthy men don’t use pornography, period. They understand that pornography is exploitative and abusive to the victims in the industry, as well as destructive to their wives and themselves. It’s NOT a “temptation” to a healthy man. It’s a no-brainer. If your husband is truly changing, he has done the work to understand the exploitative nature of the pornography industry.

How To Know If My Abusive Husband Is Changing

The effects that his pornography use has had on you and your family. And he will never return to it. Not even once. A healthy man respects your right to make decisions, large and small. He understands that he has zero right to make demands on your time, body, and energy. He gives you space. But you’re not a mind-reader and abusers are VERY good at mimicking these healthy behaviors. So how to know if my abusive husband is changing?

At BTR.ORG, we know it can be dangerous to live in close proximity to an abuser who claims to be changing. If you’re invested in staying married to the abuser, believing he is willing and capable of change.

We highly suggest taking The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. Maintaining a safe distance from the abuser. So you can observe from that distance, for a good period of time, if he is maintaining these changes. And remember, our daily Group Sessions are available to support you. 

Transcript: How Do I Know If My Abusive Husband’s Changing?

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Claire. Claire and I are from the same faith background. We’ll be talking about some particular programs specific to our faith, but it will relate. Because a lot of you have been through programs similar to this. Either faith based or secular programs, or maybe 12 step programs. As always, all faiths, all paradigms are welcome here.

So no matter what your faith or paradigm is, if you’d like to share your story. Email me at podcast@btr.org. We want to help you know if my abusive husband is changing.

So Claire, tell me your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?

Claire: Not at all. I went into the marriage thinking it was going to be equal. Not knowing anything about intimacy and what’s normal. We just had our 25th anniversary. The abuse is mainly coercion and covert emotional abuse.

He wants to look like the good guy. And so I had put in a lot of effort. This is the whole like love, serve, forgive thing, like our whole marriage. Trying to be a good person and learn how to communicate. And I had been listening to some podcasts about intimacy and how it should be for both people. I was really frustrated with that, because I felt like it’s a true principle. That marriage and intimacy are supposed to be for both people, but it still wasn’t working, and I could not see why.

Anne: Did his coercion involve using pornography? While giving you the impression that he was a faithful Christian man?

The Role Of Faith & Misconceptions Of Abuse

Claire: So this is actually my main frustration with our church’s addiction recovery program. That he did tell me about the pornography use one year into marriage. But he felt entitled to sex. On the podcast, you said this is abuse, and I was like, no, I totally didn’t believe you. I was like, he’s like needy. And then I listened to one of your podcasts about, emotional abuse. I was just completely blown away. How to know if my abusive husband is changing is so important.

This is the part that I feel is super important, because it took me a little bit of information to see the pattern. Like all I needed to know, abuse is a pattern of control based on entitlement. Emotional abuse is just a tool that is part of domestic abuse. And the whole thing with, like, abusers typically looking like they’re charming. They’re the ones that look good, and they’re the ones that show up for service projects.

That the one being abused is more likely to look crazy. And I’m like, hey, that’s me. And yeah, so that kind of blew me out of the water. But it was still like anyone seeing my husband, he’s like very good natured and jolly. It was rare for him to say things that would look abusive or where you could figure it out. But he feels like, yeah, he’s entitled to sex as much as he wants.

It’s like, I’m this toy on a shelf. He idolizes me, but I’m not a person. So I can’t have bad feelings against him. I can’t put space between us. If I want to go to activities when he’s not working, he’ll pout. But if I’m reading a book around him, he’s not okay with that.

How To Know If My Abusive Husband Is Changing: He’ll Treat You Like An Equal (& Reject Misogyny)

Claire: Interrupting someone when they’re reading a book. That’s not a big deal. The big deal is that you shouldn’t be doing that. The trying to control.

Anne: I’m entitled to your attention rather than, I know you’re reading this book, but I would really like your attention., yeah.

Claire: Yeah, but that’s being equals, right? So the coercion looked like if we hadn’t had it for 48 hours, then he would start criticizing me. And just like pouting, frowning, and being toxic until we did. I had read the LaHaye book, the act of marriage. And also in any marriage books or church materials. The whole love, serve, forgive, don’t be critical.

In the first year, I didn’t know that he was addicted to pornography. I was so sincere, trying really hard to have a good marriage. And I couldn’t see or understand what was going on. In all the things I read, there was nothing about like hey, love, serve, and forgive.

But if you see these red flags, like if you’re bringing up concerns and the person doesn’t listen. Or sincerely take it seriously. Or if you have someone lying to you, there was nothing in the materials that said anything like that. And I don’t think that’s just our church. That’s something I’m really angry about. And I think that’s a huge deal. Like, especially if you’re saying that you care about marriage that’s supposed to last forever, let’s actually try to have a relationship that’s heavenly.

Anne: How to know if my abusive husband is changing? Guess what they never talk about. I don’t think any religion does. I’ve just thought of this. So this is like an epiphany for me. Are you guys ready for this? Here we go.

The Need To Know How To Know If My Abusive Husband Is Changing: The Church’s Oversight on Spousal Abuse

Anne: No one ever talks about. What would a hell marriage look like? No one’s like, this type of marriage is a marriage made in hell. And you would be in hell if you lived in it, and that is abuse and you do not want this type of marriage. They never talk about that. Or how to know if my abusive husband is changing.

Claire: I read the most recent handbooks and stuff. They’ll say abusers tend to be people you know, and they list parents, sibling, uncle, but they never say, spouse. Even the patterns of abuse, it’s more like child molester, predator, grooming, but they never say spouse. They have lists of red flags and yellow flags that you look for when you’re dating. But I’m like, why do you stop looking for that when you’re married?

I think the focus on we’re just going to preserve the marriage as an institution, instead of helping people have healthy marriages. And if that was your focus, wouldn’t you teach about red flags and abuse patterns more specifically? You need to know how to know if my abusive husband is changing.

Anne: This is James 1:27, Religion that God, our Father, accepts as pure and faultless, to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. That’s interesting that the world part pollutes, because abusers also believe and manipulate them. Here’s the new living translation: pure and genuine religion in the sight of God. The Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress, and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

The Unspoken Truths About Marriage

Anne: So meaning like actually saying the truth. The truth is, this man is abusive, and this woman needs help, and she’s going to need help in the form of maybe food or housing.

Claire: We talk about helping the defenseless. And if you’re in an abusive marriage and you can’t see it, that’s where I was at for more than two decades. And that’s a very vulnerable place to be in.

Anne: Yeah, being abused and not knowing you’re being abused.

Claire: Yeah, and I was sincerely reading all these communication things and marriage books.

Anne: Yeah, I did the same thing for seven years. I did pornography addiction recovery, where I like needed help, help. I need help. And going to all these therapists and clergy. And no one for seven years says abuse. I now know, how to know if my abusive husband is changing.

Claire: Yeah. That’s why I feel so frustrated. Yeah, especially when we knew that he had a pornography problem the first year. And that’s what I love from you was the whole compulsive entitled sexuality and the lying.

That’s one of the huge things where you guys have rocked my world. Was the whole if you are lying about pornography, besides that, just if you’re lying in general, you’re not safe. But if you’re lying about pornography, then it’s abuse, because you’re not allowing her consent.

The Power of Truth & Consequences

Claire: And I read this quote yesterday, lying is about controlling someone else’s reality, hoping that what they don’t know won’t hurt you. And what it means to tell the truth is to give someone else her freedom, to allow her to have a reaction, even if it leads to negative consequences for you, to give her the voice that lying takes away.

Anne: That is so good. There’s a church talk, it’s one of my favorites, by one of our apostles, who is now, passed away. But he tells this story about how he loved football. And he had the football, and he was just like two inches away from the end zone. The whole pile was on top of him, and he could push the football a little more, and no one would ever know.

And I don’t know what happened in that game, if they won or not. One of the things he said was, tell the truth and let the consequences happen. Because you can’t alter God’s reality. He knows what it is. Essentially lying is also trying to, what, alter it for God? Like, that’s not gonna work. So anyway, I’ve always thought that, like, tell the truth and accept what the consequence of the truth is. Even if it’s not good for you.

Claire: Yeah, that’s the emotional immaturity going along with abuse. That you can’t handle someone else thinking you’re bad or seeing something bad that you’ve done. Then you lie to other people about your intentions or what you’ve done, so you can keep hiding. And you don’t know how to know if my abusive husband is changing.

Misinterpretations & Misguided Help

Anne: So while you’re reading these communication books, what reasons did you give for his behavior? Just that he needed it, what did you think at the time?

Claire: I didn’t think it was control coming out of entitlement. I thought he was like hangry, like when you’re fasting. And I thought he was being a little bit bratty. And I also thought it was my job to manage him. So I would try to placate him before he would be a jerk.

Anne: So like, if I am intimate with him like right now.

Claire: 48 to 72 hours, then we won’t fight, and I can avoid the drama and all that. Because he’s going to get hangry, and then he’s going to get grouchy. And I just didn’t see that it was a choice. I’ve kind of operated like a robot. I didn’t know about abuse or how to know if my abusive husband is changing.

Anne: Even if you feel like you’re choosing it. Would you choose that if you knew the truth? Well, there are moments where I wanted to. He was grooming me. And so I thought he was very loving. And then later I find out, wait, had I known he had used pornography the day before and lied to my face. I would not have wanted it. Will I ever know how to know if my abusive husband is changing.

Claire: Yeah.

How To Know If My Abusive Husband Is Changing: He Will NEVER Go Back To Pornography Use

Anne: So you attended your church’s addiction recovery program, which is a program for wives of pornography or addicts. Talk about your experience with that.

Claire: So, initially, I loved going to the meetings because I was a hermit. I didn’t have any friends, because I wasn’t taking care of myself. So this was like the only time I was talking to women. But, the main thing I am upset about is that they didn’t teach that lying is abuse. When they said women whose husbands use pornography have PTSD symptoms. I felt like seen in that. I felt like, oh, like I feel super stressed out, but that’s normal.

So it did like take a weight off of me. But at the same time it was like, oh, but it’s because I feel like he’s cheating on me. When he’s looking at pornography, but he’s not. So it’s like this illogical emotional response.

Anne: Wait, so they told you you’re logical because you feel like he’s cheating on you. But we’re telling you no, pornography isn’t cheating.

Claire: I don’t know if they taught that or that’s what I got out of it. So like, that is not safe. So you don’t feel safe. And you have these PTSD symptoms because you’re actually not safe. So like, your feelings are legitimate. And that was a huge piece missing. I was like, why don’t you teach that lying is abuse and you’re actually not safe?

Anne: Also, what is the PTSD from? It’s from abuse. Pornography is abuse, so it is from abuse. It’s not from, “pornography.” It’s from the whole system of coercive control. They’re not saying you have PTSD from abuse because you’re being abused.

Entitlement Attitude, Lying & Abusive Behaviors

Claire: It’s so interesting. If you had someone who was using pornography, but they weren’t lying about it. You would still feel scared because they’re doing something that’s demeaning to women. To me, it seems like I feel at least 80 percent safer, because if you’re telling me, I know what’s happening. That’s the piece I didn’t see until you split that out for me, that the lying is part of the abuse.

Anne: Yeah, I see this a lot with victims, and I want to say, like, beware of this. They’ll be like, yeah, he was using pornography, and then he says he stopped, and he didn’t use for a while. I’m like, who said he wasn’t using for a while? And how do you know that?

There is literally no way for us to know that they’re not using except for their behavior. So when women say to me, they stopped using pornography, but they were still angry. I’m like, if a user says I’ve stopped, but their behavior is still the same. There’s literally no reason to believe they’ve stopped. And even if they have, who cares?

Claire: Even if they stop, they already have an entitlement attitude. Like I’m entitled to women, and women should show up like this. And then you’re watching pornography, which has abuse, besides being demeaning to women in general. If they stop using it, they still have abusive behaviors that they learned from it.

The whole attitude of being entitled towards women is the source of abuse. So even if they stopped using pornography, you’re likely to still have the abusive behaviors after the fact. If they stopped in the first place.

The Need For Abuse Education

Anne: My goal in life is that whenever any woman finds out, her husband uses pornography. And it is a surprise to her. Or finds out he’s been lying or an affair. That’s the first thing they learn before they even think about pornography addiction recovery. Before they even think about love languages or men’s needs, anything like that, is that they learn about abuse. Because once you learn about abuse, you realize all that other stuff is ridiculous.

If you learn about abuse first, and then you learn about pornography addiction recovery, it’s like, this is ridiculous. If you learn about abuse first, and then you learn about men’s “needs,” you’re like, that is ridiculous. The abuse education helps you dismiss all the misogynistic, societal, religious, exploitative privileges that men have. Because it’s systemic. If you’re educated about abuse, it’s easier to dismiss all the nonsense from all the different places.

Claire: Well, and you’re going to see it. Whereas you probably wouldn’t If you were just thinking about the pornography. Then you wouldn’t see the other patterns because it’s pervasive.

Anne: I remember being like, okay, he’s abusive, but I don’t want my family to fall apart. So what am I supposed to do? Okay, I’ll just live in abuse, I guess. Because I don’t want to get divorced. I remember I went through, I don’t know, a month or two of realizing he was abusive. And then thinking, can I call it something else? Can I do something about, you know? So I think that’s why it’s so heart wrenching to find out you’re a victim.

The Birth Of BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop

Anne: When I went through it, no one taught me effective ways to set boundaries in this situation. Everyone I went to just made it worse. So through prayer, pondering, and experimentation, I discovered strategies that work. Then I tested them on myself, and they worked well. And other women tried them out, and they were like, these work.

So then I wrote the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to teach every woman these strategies. We’ve seen over and over again, these strategies work. They work to help women see their husband’s true character. It gives women enough space, both in their head and physical space, to determine what his true character is. Yeah ou have to know if my abusive husband is changing.

Anne: Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here, and we’ve got awesome online BTR.ORG Group Sessions every day. We have podcasts and workshops to help women. But I always think about the Israelites, God parted the Red Sea. I see that as education about abuse. So when you finally are educated about abuse, that’s like God parting the Red Sea for you, but you have to walk through. You have to start walking, and no one else will start walking it for you.

Claire: Yeah, I feel like the community, like the BTR.ORG Group, has someone believing you is validating. I feel like that’s essential, because you already feel like it’s shocking and disorienting.

They can’t take the actions for you, but that emotional support for me has been vital. Because I’m like, am I seeing this clearly? I feel like I am, that’s been super, super helpful for me. And I was like, holy crap. My whole life. Where was this information 24 years ago?

How To Know If My Abusive Husband Is Changing: He’ll Respect Your Autonomy

Anne: That’s why I started it because we’re the same age and there was nothing.

Claire: There wasn’t anything.

Anne: I knew there was nothing because I’d worked in the pornography addiction recovery industrial complex for years. And so I knew they weren’t making abuse the central issue. It was like, oh, and then he might be abusive on the side, and I think it is the central issue.

Claire: Yeah, and for me, I don’t care about pornography anymore. I don’t even care, like, can you please stop trying to control me? Like, let me make my own choices, don’t gaslight me, don’t blame shift me. It’s been the emotional abuse, especially since it’s been so covert. That’s been destructive to me. And I feel like, yeah, can you please expose that so that women can move on with their lives? Learn how to know if my abusive husband is changing.

Because when you focus on the pornography addiction, it’s like all the focus is on the pornography. And that he’s like this victim, and he’s struggling, and the focus isn’t on the wife getting safety for her. Just please empower me, exactly. There’s no way I would’ve seen it. I’ve been to a therapist who couldn’t see it. So there’s no way me, as a young wife, there’s no way I’m gonna understand. You need to know, how to know if my abusive husband is changing.

That’s what I wanted. I want information. I want the 20 year old me. I’m sure there are thousands and thousands of women just to have that piece of information. This is abuse. And then she can figure things out herself, and she can learn and set boundaries. She has to figure out how to know if my abusive husband is changing.

How To Know If My Abusive Husband Is Changing, Use Living Free Strategies

Claire: Because he didn’t change at all. Even with all the information, we were having all these discussions. And he’s, I love you so badly. And I want to do all these things until I was like, I’m done. Yeah, and that’s what those Living Free Strategies are for, to help women determine if my abusive husband is changing.

Anne: I’m so glad they helped you, Claire. I’m so grateful that you shared your story today. Thank you!

Claire: Thank you.