Too often, we expect abuse victims to look a certain way: downtrodden, economically-dependent, and submissive. But that’s not true. Abuse is exploitative in nature. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? Strength and ability, here’s why. Leslie, a successful doctor with multiple degrees, is a victim of her ex-husband’s horrific abuse – and she’s on the podcast sharing her story.

If you need support, check out our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session Schedule.

Here’s What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims: Financial Resources

Financially independent women may have difficulty accepting they are being abused. Because they are well-educated and respected in the workplace. The discrepancy with the way their abusive husband treats them at home may cause them to question reality. And create a disconnect in their ability to identify as a victim.

Interestingly, financial abuse is a very sad reality for women who are breadwinners in their families. This form of financial abuse may occur when the abuser:

• Refuses to work and/or contribute to family expenses.
• Uses the victim’s earnings to fund extravagant expenses and/or abusive expenses (dating apps, pornography, drugs, alcohol, etc).
• Takes the victim’s paychecks and diverts them to his account.
• Demands a portion of the victim’s paycheck and refuses to account for where the money goes.
• Attempts to sabotage the victim’s career.
• Promises to earn an income, but either cannot hold down a job or doesn’t try to secure a job.
• Forces the victim to be the breadwinner, then makes her feel guilty for doing so.
• Places an expectation that all expenses are the responsibility of the victim.
• Is constantly resetting the time horizon as to when the financially playing field will be leveled.
• Refuses to contribute to daily household tasks while the victim works to support the family.

“But I Thought I Was Smart”

Many victims berate themselves for “allowing” abuse.

They say things like:

• “But I thought I was smart!”
• “How could I be so stupid?!”
• “I don’t look like an abuse victim.”
• “Resources for abuse victims go to them – I should get myself out of this.”
• “I was stupid enough to get into this, I need to get myself out of this.”

Victims who have the capacity to earn a living can be extremely hard on themselves.

If you have experienced financial success, you are just as valid as any other victim of abuse – you deserve safety. You are entitled to every resource available to victims.

Transcript: What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims?

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. Leslie is a successful doctor caught in the throes of a horrendously abusive relationship. All of our listeners get that. One of the purposes of having her on the podcast today is to talk about how abuse does not discriminate, and how difficult it can be for even successful or well spoken women, and all of you are like that.

Maybe we didn’t recognize it because we didn’t identify as victims, but also no one else would identify us as a victim. And so we want to dig into that today: What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? So welcome Leslie.

Leslie: Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I hope my story can help others. There were many dark times that I never thought I would get to the other side, but here I am. Not only surviving, I am thriving.

Anne: Like you, now that I’m thriving, the podcast sounds so much different than it did when I started. So if those of you who are listening. If it’s a little difficult or you’re like, don’t talk to me about the light at the end of the tunnel. I’m never going to feel good. My life is over, Leslie and I have been there. I just want to acknowledge that many of our listeners will be like, oh, I don’t want to hear that. That’s not possible for me.

Leslie: I agree. I lost myself so much within that whole abusive relationship, it was hard to think that I could ever climb out.

Recognizing Red Flags

Leslie: Then I joined the BTR.ORG Group Sessions and listened to the stories told. They’re all so similar, but different in their own ways. And then I saw women change things around. I greatly appreciate it.

Anne: So Leslie, let’s start at the beginning of your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?

Leslie: He was my second husband. My first husband was my high school sweetheart. Unfortunately, we lost him. So I was at a very vulnerable time when I met my second husband. And I think he knew that. I think he used that to his advantage. He was a coworker with whom I worked a few years before that, just kind of an acquaintance. We connected on Facebook, and of course, he came in on his white horse and shining armor.

And when I look back now, can I see every single red flag? Yes, I can. However, in the throes of it, I used every excuse why those red flags were not red flags.

Anne: So at the time, were you also giving what you thought perhaps were valid reasons? Like maybe he had a traumatic childhood, or maybe this is new and we’re working on our communication skills. Only because you didn’t know it was abuse. My guess is, back then, had you been educated in abuse, you would have known what you were looking at. You just did not know what you didn’t know. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims?

Leslie: Exactly, 110%.

He Hadn’t Ever Been Married

Leslie: He was six years younger than I was and hadn’t ever married. I had been married for 27 years, with three kids. So when we started talking, I kind of saw him as a person who was totally enmeshed in his family. His family like had swallowed his life. I obviously, as a doctor, it’s my job to fix things. I see broken things and try to help.

He hadn’t been in stable relationships, because he had never met anyone like me. That was one of the wonderful lines that he always used, you know, and how everybody always cheated on him. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims?

I just hooked on to all that hook line and sinker. So of course, it was my initiation to get married. He didn’t want to get married. I’m sure everybody has either watched or knows about The Maid. And I will tell you, it took me a long time to get through that series.

Anne: The Maid is a series on Netflix. I highly recommend it. It is triggery, especially depending on where you are in your healing process. But there are many super important principles that they bring up, and they cover all the basics.

Leslie: My friend recommended it to me. She said, “I probably shouldn’t have recommended it so soon.” I was still fresh, and it took me a long time to watch it, all those red flags that I didn’t see. I continued with the relationship. We were actually in therapy before we ever got married. My 18 year old daughter, there was one point where she was like, mom, what are you doing?

Struggles With Pornography Addiction: What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims?

Leslie: I just couldn’t see it. So it was just one of those things where it became, you know, years of being pushed down. And then I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I did get him into therapy, probably nine months into our relationship. Because he had never been in therapy in his entire life.

And he used those to check the boxes. It wasn’t until we got into a couples therapist that the relationship became even rockier, more abusive. He was more emotionally abusive, getting in your face. The one part I love in The Maid, the series, is when she says, but he’s never hit me.

When I listened to that, that hit me to my core because I said the same thing. Well, he’s never hit me. It’s not abuse. He’s never hit me. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? You know, I’m strong, independent, I run two hospitals, I’ve got six degrees, I’m not being abused. I was the one researching everything, I was the one always trying to find answers.

The first time I caught him with pornography was probably the first year we were together. He had probably over 50,000 pictures of naked women of all ages on his phone. Which ended up escalating into many other areas of, you know, finding him on dating websites and you name it.

Anne: So when you say of various ages, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t use the term child pornography. We use the term child abuse material because that’s what it is. So did you also find that on his phone?

Understanding Abuse & Addiction With Therapy

Leslie: They were young looking. Yes. And then actually that was his M. O. was younger women. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? And he actually later in my journey with him, when we kind of identified a potential addiction. But honestly, now that I’m at where I’m in my life and journey, I think he just went along with that diagnosis.

He went to an expensive inpatient treatment center for three weeks, and checked all his boxes. Because he knew that was the only way he could stay in, in the marriage. But yet, he continued to exhibit all the behaviors when he came out. He ended up getting fired from his job for harassment of a younger person, younger than 21.

Anne: Let’s talk about the pornography addiction recovery. When you went down that road for a minute. Did anyone in that space or at that clinic tell you that you are an abuse victim? Was abuse brought up?

Leslie: I caught him in multiple online affairs. And we were at our last straw. We were seeing a couples counselor. The counselor goes, “I don’t understand what’s wrong with him.”

He keeps getting caught. He knows what he’s got to lose. The counselor said it’s almost like he has an addiction or something. And I go, well, is there such a thing as addiction? And of course, then I started researching everything with my analytical brain. We started going down that path. We did start with CSAT counselors, which stands for Certified Addiction Therapist.

He had one, I had one, he did end up doing one of the well known programs out in Los Angeles. Never said domestic violence, never said abuse.

Leslie’s Realization & Empowerment

Anne: Most of the time, when people go down the pornography addiction recovery route, they don’t hear the word abuse.

Leslie: Nope, I agree.

Anne: So, here at BTR.ORG, some people don’t agree with us, in fact many people don’t agree with us. You might not agree with us. Is pornography addictive? Sure, I prefer to define it as abusive behavior rather than an addiction.

Leslie: Yes

Anne: Because I think that gets to the heart of the matter. The whole pornography addiction recovery complex does not view this man as an abuser. It concerns me greatly, because I do not think they’re addressing the correct thing. They’re ignoring, what do emotional abusers look for in their victims.

Leslie: I 100 percent agree with that. The two CSAT counselors that we were working with, his and mine, were two different ones. Mine actually had been married to an abuser, and she divorced hers. The other one that my ex had seen, she had stayed with hers. It’s actually interesting to see the dynamic of what they brought to each of the therapy sessions.

Anne: Did she ever say, um, well, he’s checking boxes. That’s also called grooming. Did she ever bring that up?

Leslie: She didn’t, she said, the whole trauma bonding thing.

Anne: Can we talk about trauma bond for a minute, Leslie?

Leslie: Sure.

Anne: I’m not sure if you’ve heard our episode about this. I made up a different term for it. Because I don’t like the word trauma bond, because it feels like you actually maybe have a bond. If trauma bond is useful to you, and it’s helped move you forward and get to safety, continue using it. I didn’t like it because it seemed like a lot of women, feel stuck, right?

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? The Manufactured Relational Tether

Anne: They’re like, but I’m bonded to this person through this trauma. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? And so the term I invented, and we have a video on this that is amazing. So I’ll put that in this episode. So if you go to our website and find this episode, the video will be in there. I call it the manufactured relational tether. Actually, I think I’ve seen that.

The reason I call it is because you think you’re bonded to them, but they are not bonded to you. And they have manufactured this tether to keep you stuck. And that video clearly shows it. Do you remember that video?

Leslie: Yes, I do.

Anne: What did you think of it?

Leslie: I thought it was awesome, because I saw so many things. Like people who saw like our relationship from the start to the end. If they know now that we’ve divorced, they are just shocked. They’re like, Oh Mike, seemed like such an amazing person. He brought you flowers every day. I hate flowers now. Just an FYI to me, that is a huge trigger. Because when he would be trying to hook up with someone and get caught, guess what he did.

Brought me flowers or he was abusive that night. That’s what he did the next day, brought me flowers. So flowers to me are a huge trigger. But those are all the outside things they manufacture to everybody else. So nobody will believe your story. Nobody will believe, because they just see this “awesome person.” They don’t see what goes on behind closed doors. They don’t see the reactions.

The Turning Point: Breast Cancer

Leslie: The reason I brought up my breast cancer story was that when I first started to say, okay, I think this is not going to work. But then I found out I had breast cancer. I’ve got three grown children who don’t have their own father still alive. And I was like, and now I’m going to leave them motherless. I cannot fight him and fight for my life. So I decided that all would go on the back burner while I fought for my life.

What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? I feel like that gave him a little more leeway to continue that whole, keeping me down more and more. And it wasn’t until after I’d been through the chemo, been through the double mastectomy. And had been through months and months of CSAT counseling, we had done a therapeutic separation. Once I got out of the situation, I woke up one morning and looked in the mirror.

And I just didn’t recognize the person looking back at me anymore. I was like, wow, you would never in a million years allow this ever, ever in your life. How are you allowing this now? And that was when I started to take my power back. That’s when I started the change of not necessarily working toward our reconciliation. But working more on focusing on myself and what I needed. And if that happened, then it happened. And if it didn’t, I was okay with that.

Anne: Let’s talk about the therapy disclosure. I think that is insane when you’re looking at abuse, right? In an ideal world, which never happens.

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? Leslie’s Academic and Professional Achievements

Anne: It does happen here at BTR.ORG. That’s why I love BTR.ORG. It’s an amazing oasis of truth. But what should happen is the second you go in there, and it’s hard. Because it took you forever to figure out they were an abuser. So, why is a therapist smarter than you? They’re not, right? You, you have six degrees. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? By the way, can you just list your degrees real quick?

Leslie: So I have a bachelor’s in nursing. I have a master’s in nursing with family practice, and a master’s in nursing and neonatal. I have a doctorate, and I just went back for a neonatal fellowship that I just finished last year.

Anne: And you’re a medical doctor?

Leslie: Yep.

Anne: Okay. So you have your MD as well.

Leslie: Yes.

Anne: All right. And you run two hospitals. Okay, so Leslie is no dummy, people. So if you were like, why didn’t I see it? Why didn’t I know what was going on? And then Leslie is so smart that she starts researching things. And in this case, her research actually kept her in the abuse longer. Accidentally, right? It’s not your fault. But because it wasn’t abuse out of the gate, it’s like addiction, maybe childhood trauma, it’s some other things.

You go in and you’re given this, like, let’s do a therapeutic disclosure, or other things that a CSAT would tell you. If you went to church or when you went to church, how did he present in the, in a religious setting? A Catholic father raised me and a Baptist mother. So they never agreed on religion.

The Church & Misogyny

Leslie: So I found my religion and spirituality later in life. It was always funny to me that he would say how Catholic he was. He went to a Catholic high school. His family went to church every Sunday, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. All the lies, all the abuse, the stealing, things that he would do that were immoral. They just never added up to what a good Christian would do.

Anne: So my guess is that even though you didn’t go for help with the clergy route, many women do. Many of our listeners have tried to get help from clergy, their pastor, bishop or rabbi. They have gone to get help, and they are more abused in the process because the clergy does not know what they’re looking at. And they might be abusive themselves. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims?

They might be steeped in misogyny. And also, they may like him. I think that’s probably the biggest problem, is they know the guy and think he’s a great guy. And so they are like, what are you talking about? Because many clergy respond well when they don’t know the man.

Like if they listen, they’re like, wow, that sounds abusive. How can we help? But if they know him, they believe him over you. So it’s good that you didn’t try to get help from clergy. Because my guess is that would have been traumatic. But let’s focus then on the trauma that came from therapy. From basically prolonging the abuse. When do you start realizing that being a supportive, helpful spouse is working against you?

Leslie: It was when I realized I had totally lost myself. I was not the person I was.

The Breaking Point

Leslie: I wouldn’t engage in activities. I wouldn’t go out with my friends anymore. There were so many things that gave me joy that I would not do anymore. Just because I just existed. I was the major breadwinner. He did not work. He couldn’t hold down a job. And my breaking point for the first time we separated was that we were actually in the car dealership getting him a new car. Because his lease was up.

And I looked over and he was actually on Tinder making a hookup. While we were in the car dealership, buying him a new car. He moved out, and that was a very explosive time. We tried to navigate through that, with our couples counselor.

Anne: Sorry, it’s interesting. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? The words you’re using, you’re using the word we. So he’s trying to like reassert control here, which is why things are escalating. And we as a couple are not working on anything. But because your perspective is we, even now, talking about it. It’s really interesting that victims still may be looking back and thinking, well, we were trying. When that was never happening in the first place,

Leslie: it was, it was only me. You’re 100% right.

Anne: Yeah. Because you’re in the relationship. You have a relationship, but they don’t have a relationship with you.

The Illusion Of Partnership: What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims?

Leslie: What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? That has been one of my biggest challenges. Because being successful, being a helper, a doer, I did a lot of medical relief work pre-COVID. And he ended up piggybacking or riding my coattails on many of my trips. I would go on these trips, and maybe five photos the whole time. I was there because I’m there to work, I’m there to help. I’m there doing medical relief work.

He had thousands of photos all over social media about what a wonderful thing he was doing, and him and him and him. And I remember early on in our relationship. saying to him, what are your dreams? What are your aspirations? What are your goals? And I accomplished two more degrees. When I was with him. I always would say, you know, don’t you have a dream? Don’t you have an aspiration? What do you want to do? I said, you can’t always ride on my coattails.

I have my dreams, my aspirations of what I want to do with my life. You, you should have your own, and then we should have together goals. That was a really hard thing for me to wrap my brain around. That somebody would not have goals or not have the same drive and ambition that I had. So looking back and seeing how much he groomed and took from me.

My brother said this a few months ago. I know he didn’t mean to say it. I’ve learned to not take things personally when people say things. People sometimes just don’t know what to say. They don’t mean to say things the way they come out, but they were friends, and I think they’re loosely still friendly.

Family Dynamics & Realizations

Leslie: We don’t talk about it. And they used to go snowmobiling together. My brother went on a yearly trip, and all the guys, I guess, asked where my ex was. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims?: He said, “Well, he’s not a kept man anymore.” He said, “My sister got smart to his ways, and he’s not a kept man anymore.” Which kind of stunned me a bit, because I was like, That is exactly what he was.

He had his cake, and he could eat it too. Who wouldn’t want that? He had the nice house on the lake, and all the toys. He got to travel the world. And he still got to screw around on the side. So, you know, who wouldn’t want a life like that?

Anne: So, what he wasn’t looking for, which is so painful to recognize in hindsight, was a true partnership.

Leslie: Correct.

Anne: What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? All his behaviors were intent on grooming you. To use you for finances, travel and also prestige. Like he’s the husband of this great, amazing, successful woman, but he didn’t want to be your partner.

Leslie: 100%, and that was a really hard pill for me to swallow when I finally realized that this was not a partnership whatsoever.

Anne: And when you started going to therapy, like right at the beginning, before you were even married. Did the therapist tip you off to this?

Leslie: I think she did. And then when we had been married for a year. We moved to the West side of Michigan, away from his family. Because honestly, if we hadn’t, we probably wouldn’t have stayed married as long as we did.

Therapist’s Insight & Warnings

Leslie: When we moved to the West Side, I started seeing a new therapist, and she is amazing. She called me out on it almost immediately. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? She’s like, you realize he’s a narcissist, that he’s using you, that this is abuse. I would always have excuses, and she was very blunt, and she’d be like, no, I’m telling you. And then when I stopped seeing her, because we went down the whole addiction road.

So then I got my own CSAT. When I finally got out of that. I ended up going back to my original one, and I had a final session with my CSAT. She said, why are you stopping seeing me? And I don’t mind, because I just wonder. And I said, because the reason I’m seeing you no longer exists. I said, I don’t need to see you anymore, because this isn’t a CSAT matter.

Anne: Yeah, the interesting thing was it was never a CSAT matter.

Leslie: No, you’re right.

Anne: And the unfortunate thing is the CSAT didn’t tell you that, right? Because they do not see it as abuse. And I think they are clinically negligent.

Leslie: Although I will say I have the utmost respect. We were recommended to a counselor, who is a CSAT counselor who only sees married couples, for couple therapy. So he would have his, I’d have mine. And then we were going to see this couple one. We went to him the first time. And at the end of it, he looked at us and went, “I don’t think I can help you guys.”

Leslie: And I was so blown away.

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? The Role of A Couples Therapy CSAT With Integrity in Leslie’s Journey

Leslie: I go, what do you mean? I said, he just spent all this money on this program. You know, he’s “checking the boxes,” dah, dah, dah.

He goes, “No, he’s not.” What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? He goes, “I see all the things he’s not doing. And you want me to tell you to trust him when he’s not trustworthy? I can’t do that. And I will not take your money.”

I have the utmost respect for him, because the fact that he saw, I mean, he could have just kept taking our money and kept saying, Oh yeah, I can fix you guys. This is fine.

He did say, I want to have one individual session with each of you, and then I’ll make my final decision. And even in my first session with him, he was like, what are you doing? He’s like, really? You know, it’s funny. Lake Michigan is known for being very turbulent, and he goes, you know, they put those red flags out in the middle of the lake when they tell you not to go swimming. You saw all those red flags, and you still went swimming.

Anne: Well, it’s because you didn’t know how to process the red flag. So as you saw the red flag. To you, it said, okay, he’s got childhood trauma. He needs therapy.

Leslie: Exactly.

Anne: It didn’t say red flag abuser. You saw pornography on his phone, red flag, maybe he’s an addict. It didn’t say red flag abuser,

Leslie: Right.

Anne: That’s the other issue, is that women might see the red flags fine. But they don’t know how to process it or define it.

The Dangers Of Couple Therapy In Abuse Situations

Anne: What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? They’re trying to be good, nice people. We know people aren’t perfect. And know that we can’t expect people to be perfect. I don’t think we’re missing the red flags. We just think we’re processing them incorrectly, and most addiction or regular therapy would say work on communication, connect with them.

You know, there’s so much misinformation in an abuse scenario, which at BTR.ORG we see pornography use as abusive, right? So in an abusive scenario, they should never be doing couple therapy ever, ever, ever. So in my opinion, CSATs who do couple therapy are clinically negligent.

Leslie: I agree.

Anne: Because you’ve got an abuser, and you should not be doing couple therapy with an abuser. So it’s like an oxymoron, but they don’t see it that way because they don’t see it as abuse. So let’s actually focus on that for just a minute. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? Your original therapist that told you. Hey, this is abuse. And then you went to a CSAT. Talk about what happened.

How did he use that manufactured relational tether at that point? Maybe you went home and said, hey, she said you were abusive or something. Or maybe you didn’t, but how did he reel you back in? To go down the addiction recovery route? Talk about your thought process or how he manipulated you after that.

Leslie: You probably know the whole Gottman thing about marital therapy. So our initial therapist would use Gottman stuff with us.

Anne: When we talk about Gottman, this is classic couple therapy stuff that does not account for abuse.

Reactive Abuse Misconception

Leslie: Exactly, exactly he would use the tools that we would get in therapy as weapons against me. And he would say, “But this is what the counselor said, and you’re not doing this, and you’re not doing that. I’m trying to take a break.”

But it would always be the get in your face, that whole reactive abuse.

Anne: So we also don’t use the word reactive abuse here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. The reason I want to pause there is that people have said this, they say something. And then you react, maybe you yell or I don’t know, whatever, right?

Leslie: Uncharacteristic, yes.

Anne: And at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we just see that as trying to defend yourself.

Leslie: Right.

Anne: That’s it. You’re not abusing them reactively or anything like that.

You are trying to defend yourself, and that’s it. I do not want victims labeled as also abusers. In trying to defend themselves from abuse, that’s what the abuser wants. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? He wants to see it as like, well, we both have problems and we’re both unhealthy. When it needs to be viewed as you’ve got an abuser. And then you have a victim trying to survive.

Leslie: And that’s exactly what I was trying to do. And he would use all those therapy things as weapons back against me. I thought I was going crazy so many times. You feel like you are spinning in circles, you’re hopeless, you get to a point where you just don’t know where to turn. You don’t know what to do anymore.

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? Escaping The Fog Of Manipulation

Anne: So my guess is he’s escalating at this point because he’s losing control. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? When he’s in treatment, he knows that you have the time and space to clear out the fog. They can’t manipulate you when they’re not in constant contact with you, right? So my guess is that he’s freaking out at this point. He’s not into the treatment at all, but he’s trying to act like he is to groom you, but realizing you have space.

So at this point where you have space. You’re finally able to get your wits about you. Because so many women are trying to sort it out, while still being manipulated and lied to daily. And they’re still deep in the fog. So talk about how that space helped you see clearly.

Leslie: The space was key. It probably took me a good six weeks before I finally started to see things as they were. And the reactions he would have when we would have interactions. We had been separated for three months, and we weren’t doing any couple of counseling. He ended up getting fired from work for inappropriateness. But he did get his job back, but right then is when he was going to go away for treatment.

The day after he left for treatment, I came home that night. The following night, all three of my kids were at my house. And my kids are grown, they’re adults. And I thought, okay, what is going on? This was not a planned family thing. My daughter lives three hours away. Like, why is she here?

Family Intervention & Legal Steps

Leslie: So when I walked in, I said, what is going on? And apparently one of my children found out that he was fired for inappropriate things. And found out he had been stalking younger women. I had already spoke with an attorney before, but it was the following day that I ended up going through and filing while he was away at treatment.

Anne: One of the things that I recommend victims don’t do, which is crazy hard to do. I find that all of us needed to do this. I wish there was some way to circumvent it, but I’m not sure if there is. When you find out about the abuse or some behaviors, our natural reaction is to tell the abuser this, right?

Leslie: Right.

Anne: To say, “Hey, I just found out I have an STD. What happened?” Or, “Hey, I just found pornography on your phone.”

What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? I wish that instead of talking to the abuser and trying to help him see the situation. That they would take steps back and get to safety. Because every time we confront the abuser or try to like, help him understand the situation, we just get more abused. Similarly, you are more abused through all the therapy because he started weaponizing all the therapy language.

Once this happened and you contacted a lawyer, did you try to talk to him about what had happened or anything after that? And did you have that experience where in trying to say, hey, look, I’m going to get divorced? Did that set you up for more abuse?

Leslie: It did in a certain aspect, but we were not living together at the time. So I still could keep that.

Legal Battles & Postnuptial Agreements

Leslie: Before he left for treatment, I had enough wits about me that I contacted an attorney prior and had a postnuptial agreement drawn up. I made him sign that if he wanted to stay married or “save the marriage”. That he needed to sign it. He did sign it. And that was my only saving grace, because it basically said, “You leave with what you came with. I leave with what I came with. You’re not entitled to any spousal support X, Y, and Z.”

And that was the only thing I can say that I could have my wits about me, so that I could walk away and not get totally. For lack of better words, screwed over in the end.

Anne: So the post nup goes well, you win by default, which is awesome. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? He doesn’t get an attorney, and that is amazing. That doesn’t always happen. Sometimes they use legal abuse and drag somebody through legal things for years. So that was a miracle. Good, I’m so happy that happened for you. But you have had to actually take him to court.

Leslie: He has neglected to take me off his house, so I’m still financially liable for the mortgage on his house. He is dragging that out. I have done everything in the post nup that I was supposed to do. Everything was taken out of his name, which was supposed to be. I have sold the house we had together. So his name’s off that. I have my own new house. He owes me approximately 30ish thousand dollars for things he took out of my accounts. He just kept dragging it out.

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? Preparing for Legal Warfare

Leslie: What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? He wouldn’t answer emails for weeks at a time. I didn’t want to incur any more legal costs. I kept trying to think, okay, this is going to resolve. He’s going to get his act together, dah, dah, dah. It didn’t happen. About a month ago, I finally contacted my attorney back. I said, okay, he still doesn’t have my name off the house, and he still owes me this money. What are we going to do?

Leslie: And he’s like, okay, are you ready to play by my rules? I said, I said, yes. He goes, because if we play by my rules, he’s not going to like it. And I go, I’m just done dealing with him. So we go back to court on June 6th. They will actually hold him in contempt of court times two, one for non-payment of what should have been paid. Which he hasn’t paid for a year and a half.

And the second is, is they’re going to make him list his house for sale. And he will only have 15 days to get it listed. This house was always a bane of our existence, because it was always his. He would never sell it. So the fact that they’re going to try to make him sell is a little disconcerting on my part. Just because I know this will put him over the edge. But when you don’t do what you’re supposed to do in the beginning, and you act like an idiot, then this is the consequences.

Anne: Yeah. Because you don’t share kids with him.

The Importance Of Boundaries

Anne: Have you blocked him on your phone?

Leslie: He’s blocked on my phone, he’s blocked on social media. I’ve blocked all family, any friends that were mutual friends that weren’t my friends prior to us getting together. They have all been taken off all my social media.

Anne: So you’re prepared.

Leslie: Yes.

Anne: Yeah. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? It’s going to be all out war for him, and he’s going to want to drag it out forever. And one of the things to think about is telling your attorney to minimize legal costs as much as possible. Because he’s going to want to drag this out for years.

Leslie: And the nice thing is in the postnuptial agreement, it specifically states that if we have to go back to court for one of us not complying with the postnuptial, that person must pay all legal court costs for both parties.

Anne: That is awesome. And they’ll have to take that out?

Leslie: Yes.

Anne: Of the house he sells.

Leslie: Yes, yes.

Anne: So you’ll have the money. Ah, that’s great. Well, I hope it goes well, because sometimes, not sometimes, all the time, most of the time, these court things go really haywire. So you think, Oh, I’m all prepared and everything looks good. And then it hits and it does not go the way you want. I hope that that happens for you. It seems like you’re well prepared.

Warning For Listeners About Abusers In Court

Anne: But for our listeners out there, I want to give everybody a nice healthy, sad, horrific warning. That no matter how well prepared you are, they are so skilled at manipulation, lies, and throw all kinds of crazy things your way. And even when you think, okay, I know what the worst case scenario is. And I’m okay with the worst case scenario. It can even be worse than that.

What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? They are so tricky in court, and the courts don’t understand it. So I hope things go well, and it sounds like they will, but I just want to do a little warning for my listeners.

Leslie: I agree with that, because I feel that it’s a toss up either way. The judge can go either way on it. You know, you think you’ve crossed all your T’s and dotted your I’s, but you know, when push comes to shove and he gives his sob story or whatever he decides to do, who knows what’s going to happen. Everybody says, you should just write right off that money, you’re never going to see it. Just let it go, move on.

And I’m like, no, he’s taken enough of my life from me. Like, why would I give him the satisfaction of giving him another 30, 000? I don’t have to deal with it. My attorney is dealing with it. It’s kind of more principle to me that no, you will not continue to abuse and take and not have consequences.

Anne: Especially because you share that house. Getting your name off that house is super important. So I have a theory that successful women have a harder time getting out of abuse.

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? The Power of Sharing Your Story

Anne: And it’s because people don’t perceive them as a victim, so it’s harder to get help. What do you think about that?

Leslie: I think it’s pretty true. I’ve become much more outspoken for survivors of abuse. And it actually was my own medical doctor when I was sitting there sobbing to her, telling my story to her. She was just so taken aback. She said, “You could still do good work. I know you want to do your medical relief work again.”

And she goes, “But you know, the biggest work you could do is get your story out there.” She said, “Because there are so many people who don’t have the resources you had. Or don’t know where to turn or think just because they’re not successful. This is why it happened to them.”

No, it happens to anyone, anyone. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? It can happen to anyone. And it’s so devastating when you are in the thick of it. It is so hard. And I say this all the time, stay your course. You will get there today. It might not seem like it tomorrow. It might not seem like it.

And I will tell you, even probably six months ago, I was not the person I am today. And I would not have been as positive even six months ago, as I am today, just by staying my course and not deviating from my own personal growth and what I needed to do for me. I stopped focusing on us and the marriage and started focusing on me.

Anne: In some ways, your resources worked against you because you could pay for couple therapy, you can pay for CSATs, you can go that direction.

The Right Resources Matter & Children As The Abuser’s Leverage

Anne: When people say there are lots of resources available, it’s important for me to point out the right resources matter.

Leslie: Right, exactly.

Anne: You can waste so much money on pornography addiction recovery. You can waste so much time doing that. Getting the abuse resources is the most important thing, and sticking with that course. The other thing I wanna say is that you’re doing so well right now. And I’m so happy for you, is that you do not share children with this man.

Leslie: Yes.

Anne: And so you can get completely away, right? Even if his court case doesn’t go great and you lose $30, 000. That’s a bummer, but his name will get off the house. Many listeners to this podcast, myself included, are forced by the court system to continue to interact with our abuser. Who is also psychologically and emotionally abusing our children.

And this is for years and years. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? What happened at the end of the Netflix show The Maid, exactly. The end was like, oh, finally she could get out. And I think society wants us to think that I think society is like, if you keep putting one foot in front of the other, you will get out eventually.

And the harsh. awful terror is that the court system is actually not helpful. We are still forced to interact because we share kids. The Maid could have ended completely differently, where he didn’t let her go, right? And I would say that’s the majority of what women are experiencing. So that had a happy ending, but that happy ending is rare.

The Harsh Reality Of Court Systems

Anne: So for those who don’t share children, this could be your story.

Leslie: Right.

Anne: And I want to provide hope for you that you can move on. It is there. It is waiting for you. And you can have a complete and total separation from those injuries. And then for those who share children, and you’re facing that every day.

For me, even up until probably a year ago, stories like yours, I was happy for you. But so triggered and mad for me.

Leslie: Yeah.

Anne: But like, nobody would protect me. Then in fact, the court system supposed to protect victims was actually not the domestic violence shelter and everything. They’re like, get out, get out and get out, but you can’t get out.

You’re stuck. And so I was always like continually mad. I have now used a type of strategic communication to be in a better place that isn’t dependent on court. Using this type of strategic communication, I was able to deliver myself and my kids completely. So they don’t go with him hardly at all anymore.

You can find those strategies in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop and in The BTR.ORG Message Workshop.

Leslie: And I do feel for the people who have children, and I will say, I am so grateful that I did not have children with him. I can so see where that is such a struggle. But I believe there are ways of communication and learning how to respect yourself enough to keep your own boundaries with them. And I think that was my biggest thing. I always lacked boundaries in many areas, so the biggest thing was teaching myself boundaries.

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims: They Don’t Know How To Use Boundaries

Leslie: Boundaries with my own kids. Boundaries with, strangers, with people. The biggest takeaway is learning how to deal with that part of it.

Anne: It’s a skill we all need to learn. This is not a, like, high school class they offer, so it’s important. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? We talked a little bit about targeting, being used, grooming, the manufactured relational tether. You learned a lot through this about how you were never in a relationship. But that you were targeted.

If you could go back in time. And talk to yourself before meeting him, and teach you some of the things you never wanted to learn, that you never knew you needed to know. What would you tell yourself?

Leslie: I would tell myself to one, respect myself enough to listen to my inner self and my inner gut feelings. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? I think that is the biggest thing they target is getting you to start doubting yourself. I always prided myself on having a wonderful, amazing ability to have that inner gut feeling as many medical professionals do.

That’s how we guide our practice a lot of the time, but that was used against me, because once he stopped my ability to trust my own gut. That is where I feel he was able to worm himself in and keep me off balance. I would say to myself trust your gut. Actions speak louder than words.

I remember saying your actions are not matching your words early in our relationship. And if I had just kept true to myself in that statement, his actions showed me exactly who he was, not the words. I think that would have been a totally different outcome.

The Trap Of Trying To Resolve With Abusers

Anne: It’s interesting, so when we recognize that his actions are inconsistent with his words. Because we perceive them as a partner. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? The first thing we want to do is talk to them about our feelings. That is where they keep us trapped. They would like us to think it’s a partnership, because in a partnership, that’s what you would do. You would try to resolve it, to talk to them about our observations.

So, as we say, “Hey, I noticed your actions don’t sync up with your words”. Then they can talk more and groom more. Like, okay, well she noticed that. So now I’m going to try this other tactic, or now I’m going to lie better. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? Unfortunately, with an abuser, all they hear is, I need to deceive better, manipulate better, and groom better.

You can’t determine that unless you have those conversations. So giving grace to all the victims who tried to talk to their abuser, only to be abused more. If you’re in that boat now, and you’re listening to this. Let’s pretend that on this podcast you have heard something and you’re like, this is how he is. An aha light bulb has gone off in your head. I would encourage you, do not go to your abuser and tell him about it. Do not go to him and say, “Oh, you have to listen to this podcast.”

Before you decide to do that, please enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. At least learn how to communicate strategically with them before you make a decision about that.

The Importance Of Staying Quiet

Anne: If you enroll in Living Free and learn the strategies, and then you decide, you know what, I’m still going to talk to him. Then at least you’ll be making a decision, having all the information you need to make that decision.

Leslie: I can’t tell you how many times I would confront him immediately on something. And afterwards, I would say to myself. Why didn’t you just stay quiet? Why didn’t you just continue to gather your “evidence” to realize what was going on? But as soon as I found something or something would happen, it would immediately come out of my mouth. That is the biggest thing. What you just said.

What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? Don’t confront them like they’re using all your words against you, and that is the hardest thing to do.

Anne: For that reason, BTR group sessions are useful, because you need to share that it’s inside you, and it will come out. BTR.ORG Group Sessions are the perfect place, or Individual Sessions with our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches are the perfect place.

Leslie: And I so appreciate everything Betrayal Trauma Recovery does to help women in these situations, because it seems so hopeless. I just want to encourage everyone that one day there is a light. There is. Just keep looking for it.

Anne: Thank you so much, Leslie.