You don’t have anything wrong with you if you left an emotionally abusive marriage and your new husband is abusive too.

Chandra’s story continues on the BTR.ORG podcast – she’s sharing her own experience when a new husband is abusive too. Read the full transcript below and tune into the BTR.ORG podcast for more.

This episode is Part Two of Anne’s interview with Chandra:

Part 1: This Is How Abusers Manipulate Their Victims – Chandra’s First Marriage
Part 2: When My New Husband Is Abusive Too – Chandra’s Second Marriage (THIS EPISODE)

When women experience a new husband is abusive too, they may blame themselves:

• I’ve already been through this once, how could I make this mistake again?
• What is it about me that attracts me to abusers?
• Why didn’t I see the signs sooner?
• Why didn’t I do this, this, and this differently?

Here’s the truth: you are not to blame for his behaviors when your new husband is abusive too.

Blaming yourself for abuse by another man is needless torture. You have been through enough – please exercise compassion for yourself rather than judgment. Many women, including Chandra, experience embarrassment and shame when they realize their new husband is abusive too. This shame and embarrassment may deter them from seeking safety early on, believing that with enough grit and determination, they can make the marriage work.

BTR.ORG Is Here When Your New Husband Is Abusive Too

Victims of abuse who have a new husband is abusive too may feel discouraged, embarrassed, and hopeless. Sometimes, victims express feeling silly or pathetic for having entered into a second marriage.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be loved. In fact, this is a normal part of being human. What is NOT normal, is being abusive. You are not the problem here – the abuser is the problem.

If you are experiencing trauma from a new husband is abusive too, please join our BTR.ORG Group Sessions today. You deserve a healing community of loving, compassionate women who understand.

Transcript: When My New Husband Is Abusive Too

Anne: Chandra, a member of our community, is back on today’s episode. Last week, she told the story about her emotionally abusive first husband. This week, we’ll talk about her second husband, her new husband is abusive too. If you haven’t heard about her first marriage, go back and listen to last week first, and then join us here.

Chandra, welcome back.

Chandra: I’m still wrapping my head around grace for myself for not knowing before that my new husband is abusive too. And getting into that situation again. I feel like, why didn’t I see the red flags after what I’d been through? Maybe it was too soon? I hadn’t learned the lessons I needed before another relationship. And I thought I was ready, but I must not have been right.

Anne: I’m going to disagree with you, sorry.

Chandra: That’s okay.

Anne: It’s not your fault that someone abuses you. There are so many women who don’t know much about abuse, or who don’t know how to recognize red flags. And they marry great guys.

Chandra: Yeah.

Anne: Because the guy’s not abusive.

Chandra: Right.

Anne: It’s never your fault if someone intentionally deceives you. It’s never your fault if someone intentionally grooms you, and you don’t know. Those who’ve been through it tend to know more, I would say, than the average person. The average person who marries a healthy person doesn’t know about it. Their husbands didn’t abuse them.

Anne: Even though you went through an abusive situation, this second abuser abused differently than before. I remember talking to a friend who was in a horrific abusive situation. And I was newly married. I went to her and said, “Hey, you know, what’s happening with my husband? Is this kind of what you experienced?”

Early Signs Of Trouble & A Vulnerable Time

Anne: She said, “No, your husband’s amazing compared to my guy.” Right, and so she thought my husband was healthy and great. She’s like, yeah, but nobody’s perfect. But like, man, he’s so much better. And so I was like, Oh, okay, well then he’s not abusive because she would know. Because she’s been in an abusive situation.

But that’s not necessarily the case, because abusers know how to groom people. They can groom you in a way that “works for you.” So I just don’t think it’s ever our fault. However, I think we learn a lot of skills along the way.

Chandra: Oh my, yeah.

Anne: So saying that, I just want to say no. Not your fault.

Chandra: Yeah, that helps. It’s nice to hear that. It’s just frustrating to have spent another eight years with somebody that was also not a great partner and hurt me again. And especially after all the promises. Like, oh, your first husband did you wrong, and I’ll take care of you and never let that happen to you blah, blah, blah.

So, I met my second husband at work. He was not working in the same company. But he was in sales and would visit and attempt to get me to specify his company’s equipment on projects. He was smooth, Mr. Debonair, a lot of fun and interesting. I felt super vulnerable too, and had a broken heart, and wanted to be loved.

And I was vulnerable, and I think sometimes these men can see that. These men look for somebody that is maybe compliant. And it’s a bit weaker and easy to control.

Visiting Back & Forth Without Kids

Anne: I don’t know about that either. Some of them are looking for someone who will manage them. Someone who’s strong. Someone who can organize things and do stuff so they can just kind of coast along. So I also wouldn’t say that’s your fault for everything. You could say, oh, I was weak. So that’s what he was looking for.

There’s also very kind and loving men who might be like, oh, she’s weak, so I need to protect her. So I just don’t think again that it’s your fault. Every time you tell me there’s some reason, I’m gonna say no, no, no. It is not your fault that your new husband is abusive too.

Chandra: Definitely. I’m a high functioning woman. I make stuff happen. I do it. Probably both husbands saw that and went, I want me some of that, right? I want that high functioning woman looking after my life, because let me tell you, I did that. I took care of things. What’s interesting, and this will just tie into my story a bit about my second husband. Is that I would visit him or he would visit me when we didn’t live in the same city, when my kids were visiting their dad.

And so I wish I had seen him more around my kids. If I had, I probably would not have married him, because he didn’t want my kids around. I didn’t discover that until after I married him and moved in with him. And whenever I visited him, his house was spotless. Okay, it looked great, his life looked great. He was looking after things. It all looked good. It didn’t look like my new husband is abusive too.

The Disappointing Reality Of Living Together

Chandra: I will tell you that the day I moved in, I hadn’t visited for three months. And I am pretty sure he didn’t pick up a single dishcloth. He did not pick up a broom. He did not touch the bathroom. It was a pigsty the day we moved in. It was late at night, and we got there, and my kids needed baths. I remember 10 o’clock at night cleaning the bathroom, thinking, what have I gotten into? This guy wants me to do all the cleaning. He wants me to do everything around here.

I was never able to get him to pick up a broom or vacuum to help. From then on, he said, well, you’re the one with all the kids, so the mess is mostly yours. You need to clean up.

Anne: Was he a member of your church?

Chandra: No, he wasn’t.

Anne: And I’m not saying anything about, if he would have been, it would have been good, no, no, no.

Chandra: I remember thinking when we dated, should I date someone from my faith community? Well, first of all, the pickings were pretty slim where I was living. I lived in a remote northern community north of Toronto, not a lot of choice up there, I would say. There’s some good people up there, but I thought to myself, does it matter?

I married somebody who checked all the boxes I was taught to look for. And look what happened. What if my new husband is abusive too? So do you think I care if he’s a member of my faith community?

Realizing The Extent Of The Problem

Anne: That’s exactly how I feel now. Yeah, I do not care.

Chandra: I did not care. I just wanted to be with someone who would love me and treat me right. And I thought that’s what I had, but quickly after moving in with him. I realized I was in trouble. My new husband is abusive too. The first Monday morning that we woke up to go to work, he woke up late, his alarm hadn’t gone off or something.

And he looked at me and said, “Why didn’t you get me up?”

And I was like, it’s my job to do that? What have you been doing all this time that you’ve been living alone? It’s not my job to get you up in the morning. And I thought, oh my gosh. He would come home at 10 o’clock at night, and I would not hear from him, and I didn’t know where he was.

And he would come in, and I would say, where were you? And why didn’t you let me know where you were? Like, you’re married, you should tell me where you are. He felt entitled to go wherever he wanted and do what he wanted, and he didn’t have to answer to me.

Anne: Had he been married before?

Chandra: No, and he was a few years younger than me. But his maturity was well below what he had presented. Like, he got into fights with my 10 year old son. And behaved in ways similar to my son. As if his emotional development was arrested at age 10.

Leaving A Second Abusive Marriage

Chandra: It was strange. I started noticing things about him. He had no empathy for my kids, and he did not treat them well. It didn’t take me long before I realized I needed to leave. And I actually moved out about four years after we moved in with him.

I mean, I tried for a while to make things work. But I knew right away I was not in a good situation. But I’ll tell you the shame of making a mistake. That’s what kept me in that situation much longer than I needed to be. That’s one thing I wish I could change, is just, you know, don’t worry about what people think. If it’s not right, do something about it. I know that’s not easy. It’s not that simple. I know that. But if I could change anything, that’s one thing I would change. It is difficult to leave if your new husband is abusive too.

He had an affair, in the process of me preparing to move out, and I was not expecting that. I mean, we didn’t get along that great. And I was upset with him for his behaviors and the way he treated my kids. But I wasn’t expecting him to do that.

But I recognized the signs right away. And a week after I moved out, I had gone to his place to do my laundry. Because the place I’d moved into was getting a new washer dryer, and it wasn’t there yet. So I went over to his place and lo and behold, there’s a vehicle sitting in the driveway I didn’t recognize. it was unlocked.

My New Husband Is Abusive Too: Confronting The Affair

Chandra: So I’m the wife. I’m going to open the door and look in the glove box. And it was a woman’s I. D. in there. And I looked her up on Facebook, and I went into the house. He had taken all the pictures of us, and any evidence that I existed, and swept it into drawers. Basically, he hid every possible evidence that he had a wife. I realized, oh, he’s out on a date with this woman, and he plans to bring her back here.

Because I don’t see any of my stuff out, I hadn’t taken everything. I thought this was going to be a short-term separation. I didn’t know. So I actually looked her up on Facebook, and I sent her a message. And I said, did you know that the man you’re on a date with is married? You know, I’m at the house, I’m going to do my laundry, and I’m not confrontational, but I’d like you to come and get your car and go home. And they stayed out for a while after that.

I know they’d seen my messages, and there was a bit of back and forth. And I just said, I’m just here waiting. I’m not going to hurt anybody. I’m not going to come out and yell at anybody, but I just want to talk to you. I said that to my husband.

Chandra: So he came in and I had evidence that my new husband is abusive too. And all he could do was lie and lie and lie.

Dealing With Betrayal & Lies

Chandra: He was just lying his face off, trying to hide it. I’ve got the evidence that you’re with this woman, and messaged her the next day. Because even then, all the lies were shaking me up. And I thought, what if it’s not what it looks like. So I actually messaged her again the next day and asked her for details. She said he lied and was separated for six months. I had literally just moved out.

And I told her we were supposed to work on the relationship. We’ve been married for this long. And we struggle over getting along because of the kids. She had no idea he had lied to her, and made it sound like the relationship was over many months ago. She said, “I’m so sorry, I had no idea he told me these lies.”

And I said, “Okay, don’t worry about it.”

But then I showed him the messages. And said, “Look, she told me everything. I know this has been going on for two months.” And once he was found out, he broke down and cried, and, oh, you know, I’m so messed up. And yeah, let’s work on it, blah, blah, blah. So for the next year, I bent over backwards, like I did before, thinking this was just a mistake, like an accident, haha.

He made this mistake, and it’s just because things have been rough, and we’ve been fighting. And we got separated, and it knocked him loose, so he’s a little upset about that. I was making all these stupid excuses for him. I didn’t realize fully that my new husband is abusive too.

The Impact Of Pornography When My New Husband Is Abusive Too

Anne: Were you aware that he used pornography?

Chandra: When we were dating, I said to him, “I absolutely don’t tolerate pornography in my relationships.”

And he says, “Oh, well, I used to use that. I only use that when I’m single. I don’t need that. I’m not addicted.” That’s what he said. And I said, it is absolutely not welcome in our relationship. And he agreed. He’s like, okay. I can do that. I’m not addicted to it. But, I noticed right before I moved out, he was on his phone a lot.

At one point he had this friend send him pornography images. And we were in the bedroom one time, and he showed me a picture, and he said, Oh, my friend just sent me this. And I took one look at it, and I went, what the heck is that? I said, “That’s pornography. I don’t want to see that.” I was disgusted by it.

And I was angry at him, and I caught him a couple of other times looking at images. And I realized, he went back to it. Maybe he’s been doing it the whole time, and I don’t even know. And he would have problems performing in bed.

Anne: Yep, that’s a pornography thing. Yeah.

Chandra: Right, yeah, and I didn’t realize that, but it sort of made sense. I thought, well, if he’s fooling around with that all the time, he’s not going to have it for me. But he would tell me, he’d say, oh, you do it for me, you do it for me, that kind of thing. Anyway, I realized that was happening. My new husband is abusive too.

Unsuccessful Attempts To Salvage The Relationship

Chandra: Because I didn’t want that again, I made a big effort the year after the affair to go and see him, spend time with him and be intimate with him. Let me tell you.

Anne: Thinking that would solve the problem.

Chandra: Thinking that would solve the pornography problem. Neither of my husbands were deprived of intimacy. I’ll just say that. They were not. There was no reason for them to do anything else.

Anne: Even if they’re deprived of intimacy? There’s still no reason for them to do that.

Chandra: I guess the reason I say that is because my first husband had said he had an expectation. That he expected it every day when he married. That’s what he thought. And somehow I had dropped the ball and not made that happen for him. And so that was one of his excuses for acting out.

So moving right along, basically, I think there was more divine intervention in helping me get past this relationship. A year after my second husband had that affair, a bunch of horrible things happened all at once. I lost my job, had a layoff. And I actually think it was related to all the stress I was under. I struggled emotionally and performed at work, but my attitude was bad.

I was really suffering because my new husband is abusive too. Instead of asking me if there was anything they could do to help, my employer was like, she’s a problem. Get her out of here. At least that’s my interpretation of what happened. And being in an all male work environment was just a tough environment for women to be in. But there was no understanding. You know, I was driving my kids around a lot.

Losing A Job & Coping With Loss

Chandra: Sometimes I would have to leave in the middle of the day to take them to appointments. And I don’t think anybody understood what I was going through at the time. Trying to work full time, build my career as an engineer, and take care of four kids. Plus, my new husband is abusive too. It was insane. And I had no family around to help me.

So, I lost my job. And I had a miscarriage somehow. I was 43 and pregnant, and I actually felt so relieved that pregnancy didn’t happen. Because I wasn’t with a good person. When I went through that, I was at the hospital dealing with that. And he couldn’t be bothered to come. He went fishing instead. And that kind of didn’t sit well with me.

Then, you know how, uh, the phones you can have, uh, share my location with your partner, with family members? We had been trying to get that to work, because I wanted to keep tabs on him. And his phone, I couldn’t get it to work with his phone, I couldn’t figure it out.

It was a Sunday afternoon. He came and had dinner with me and the kids. at our place. Then he just went home. And it was weird, because most of the time we spent time on Sunday evenings together before the work week started. And he just went home. I think he said something about having something to do. And I was just sitting there minding my own business. And suddenly, my phone showed me his location.

Discovering The Truth, My New Husband Is Abusive Too

Chandra: And he was in a part of the city that he shouldn’t have been in at that time of day, or during that time of the week. It didn’t make sense. He was down in a part of the city where they would have festivals, and there was actually a festival in the city at the time. I think this was divine intervention and a way to wake me up to the situation I was in. My new husband is abusive too. Because I felt panicky again suddenly, and I followed to the location.

And there was this truck in the parking lot at this festival spot. And I thought, Oh my gosh, he’s fooling around on me still. All of a sudden, he returned from the festival towards his truck. And I got out of my car, and he was with a woman, and I started walking towards him. He saw me and he started walking away from her. And I pointed at him and said, “You’re doing it again!” And I said to her, “He’s a cheater.”

I said, “He’s married to me. He’s basically already had one affair, and now he’s trying to have another one.” And I was like, freaking out.

Anne: And most likely more than that that you never knew about.

Chandra: Well, I did find out a lot more later. Because after that happened, I said, “You have to give me all your passwords.” And that’s when I started checking his emails, Facebook, and doing all this stuff. To try and wrap my head around how big this problem was. But I still remember thinking, this is a pattern. You know how they say, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Uncovering The Extent Of Numerous Betrayals

Chandra: I thought to myself, why am I accepting this behavior? And so I gave him another chance. I think I felt ashamed of the situation for a second time. and thought, I want to make this right. I thought there was still a way to figure it out. So I spent the next few months finding out more about what he’d been up to. And contacting many of the women he had been messaging on Facebook and asking them what had actually happened. Collecting evidence that my new husband is abusive too.

I was doing my sleuthing, right? They messaged me and said, “Oh yeah, he asked me for pictures, and he wanted to get together.” And they told me about conversations. I did all this research and finally said to him. You know, the only way we’re staying together is if we get some counseling from somebody. That can help a couple heal from betrayal.

Anne: Oh, because you didn’t know it was abuse.

Chandra: I still didn’t know. I still didn’t see it that way.

Anne: I want to hear how this counseling went. Because I would guess it’s not doing any good and not going very well.

Chandra: It didn’t do any good. The counselor was well known and does couples counseling to help them heal from betrayal. His approach was better than anything else we’d done. We’d been to counseling two or three times.

Anne: It seems like it would work. It sounds good, it sounds like, oh, our relationship can be healed. It does not work. And in fact, it puts an abuse victim in further danger. And that is what is so scary.

When Your New Husband Is Abusive Too, You Are Not To Blame

Anne: They are not informing people or even acknowledging that this is a perpetrator and abuse victim, so it’s super dangerous for the victims.

Chandra: Yeah, I think the reason I thought it was better. He identified to my second ex-husband that I was injured. He did identify that. And he was trying to get my ex-husband to take the necessary steps to address the injury that had happened to me. He basically said, “This can’t get better until her injury is addressed properly.”

It was better than anything I came across up until that point, right?

Anne: Yeah.

Chandra: And he would split us up and speak to us separately. He would give my ex-husband homework, but he would ask us to report back on how things were going separately. So I got to provide feedback on what was happening myself. You know, it evolved beyond what some counselors do.

But it still wasn’t hitting the mark. I recognized that my ex-husband was just jumping through hoops. And making it look good. I recognized that he was just going through the motions. That’s when I realized I was done. We had Christmas. And he went home on Christmas Eve, and he was going to come in the morning and open presents with us. But when he went home that night. He was upset he hadn’t been the center of attention, and he basically texted me and said, “I’m so depressed.”

Emotional Manipulation Unveiled & No Support

Chandra: I don’t get enough attention from you. I think I’m gonna kill myself. Of course, I was terrified, and when he didn’t show up in the morning, I actually went to his house to check if he was okay. And I half expected to find that he’d shot himself or something. That wasn’t the first time he did that.

I realized later that’s emotional abuse and manipulative. My new husband is abusive too. I’m upset, and after that happened, I thought, I don’t want this anymore. This is a cycle. I didn’t call it abuse at the time. I just don’t want to live this life anymore. And I deserve better than this. Basically, the entire experience, the 15 years I’ve had, since my first husband left. I have not found decent support in my faith community.

With a few exceptions, there were a few people who were caring and loving. But for the most part, I found that people do not want to talk about it. They don’t want to look at it, they don’t want to hear your story, and why can’t you get over it already? I also don’t feel like the trauma is well understood, like losing a baby, or the death of a spouse. It’s almost like there’s a hierarchy of what’s considered trauma, worthy of compassion, and what’s not.

I got the sense, I started to think. Wow, it almost feels like I’m being ostracized and treated like I’m second class. Because they think I must have done something wrong to deserve what happened to me. And I thought, why would they think that?

Understanding Trauma & Ostracism Of Abandonment

Chandra: And I think it’s actually a defense mechanism where people are afraid of that kind of thing happening. Like, I don’t want to be the abandoned woman. I don’t want to be betrayed. And if I think to myself, well, she must have done something to deserve it, and I don’t do those things, then it won’t happen to me. Without anybody actually ever saying that, is the sense that I have over the years. From the way people have reacted to me and treated me.

Anne: I tend to agree with you. I think they think there’s some way to manage it.

Chandra: Yeah.

Anne: I also think many women are in that situation. If they talk about it, or if they empathize with you, if they don’t blame you at all.

Then they think that could also happen to me in a very real way, in that they are actually going through it. And so they, they think, okay, well, I’m not going to talk about it or acknowledge it , and then he won’t leave me.

Chandra: Yeah, I’m not going to face it. I’m not going to talk about it. Yeah, totally. And the other thing I experienced was people trying to diminish it, make it into a one-time event.

You know, I understand that something happened to you in the past, when my new husband is abusive too, and that was hard. But you know, you shouldn’t let it affect how you are now. And that is not a one-time event. What happened to me, what happened to me, has been ongoing for 25 years, and I continue to suffer. I watch my children suffer.

The Ongoing Cycle of Abuse: When Your New Husband Is Abusive Too

Chandra: I continue to be abused. My first husband continues to financially abuse me. It’s not a one-time event, and people don’t understand. It’s a long process to overcome the trauma happening around those circumstances. Because my new husband is abusive too.

Anne: They don’t understand that we’re still being abused. Actively abused. Yes, actively. And when you tell them that, they’re like, “Well, I guess we’re.” They just don’t get it.

Chandra: They just don’t get it.

Anne: There’s nothing that you could say to be like, no, I’m still actively abused. Well, you’re not married to him. So how could he do that? Is he hitting you? Is he coming over to your house and smacking you in the face?

Chandra: Yeah, it’s not, it’s so subtle. But the thing is, I found myself getting more and more angry at those reactions. And, you know, like I said before, I’m a praying woman. I prayed for help, because I knew I was so angry and frustrated. And I don’t think I had ever had the support I needed. Your Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group didn’t exist when I went through my first abandonment and betrayal. I didn’t have any close friends who had been through it.

And even my own family loved me and tried to support me. But no one understood what I was going through. I felt alone for many, many years and was just in executive functioning mode, just trying to make stuff happen for everybody. When I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, I felt validated, supported and understood for the first time.

Finding Solace In Betrayal Trauma Recovery

Chandra: I felt anger towards my faith, community and family. And all the people that have questioned me and made me feel like they didn’t understand. They didn’t care, or they thought I should just get over it already. The anger started to dissipate. I didn’t see it as abuse until I started listening to this podcast, and I only found it a few months ago. It helped me actually begin healing some of the spiritual and emotional wounds I’ve had. Because of the pain of, my new husband is abusive too.

You know, I was high functioning, making stuff happen in my day to day life, and was focused on that.

My youngest daughter turned 18, and she moved out, and I was on my own, empty nester in a new marriage. I realized I had a lot of wounds to heal, and I was feeling angry about some of my experiences with people in my faith community, and I thought I needed help.

I think that’s why I found you, because it was the right time. And I think God knows when we need certain things in our life. And that’s why I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast when I did.

Anne: I’m so glad you did. I’ve heard so many stories like that of people who said, I need help. I need help. They say a prayer, a stand up, go to their computer and find the This podcast.

Pay Attention To Your Gut Feelings

Anne: And I’m actually very humbled that they think Heavenly Father directs them here. I’m grateful he helped me start this podcast. And then helped BTR grow so that people can find us. I never imagined it growing in this way.

And so I think. God’s hand really is in this, and he really does love us and care about us, and he wants us to find each other and hear these stories. Because knowing that we’re not alone is so healing.

Chandra: Yeah. What you’re doing is incredible, and it’s inspired, and it’s really, really badly needed.

Anne: Well, I needed it, which is why I started it.

Chandra: Yep, yep, exactly.

I think probably one of the most important things would have been to pay closer attention to the gut feelings. I don’t know how to get over the issue women face when their husbands lie to them. It’s not normal to actually think someone is lying to you. I have to, I have to share something.

The Power of Truth Default Theory When Your New Husband Is Abusive Too

Chandra: I read a book by Malcolm Gladwell called Talking to Strangers. He uses some examples to illustrate something called Truth Default Theory. Which came out of Timothy R. Levine’s research. He’s a distinguished professor at the University of Alabama.

He has this theory about how when we communicate with other people, we not only tend to believe them. But the thought that maybe we shouldn’t doesn’t even come to mind. And it allows people to communicate in society. But it makes it really hard for women in these situations to actually detect lying in their husband.

And when Malcolm Gladwell wrote about this, he said, we have a default to truth. Our operating assumption is that people we are dealing with are honest. To snap out of truth default mode requires a trigger. A trigger is not the same as a suspicion or the first sliver of doubt. Also, we fall out of truth default mode only when the case against our initial assumption becomes definitive.

We don’t behave like sober minded scientists, slowly gathering evidence of the truth or falsity of something before reaching a conclusion. We do the opposite. And start by believing, and we stop believing only when our doubts and misgivings rise to the point where we can no longer explain them away.

Doubts trigger disbelief only when you can’t explain them away. In the movies, the brilliant detective confronts the subject and catches him right then and there in a lie. But in real life, accumulating the evidence necessary to overwhelm our doubts takes time.

The Challenge Of Detecting Lies When Our Default Is Believing Others Are Telling The Truth

Chandra: He says in his book, “You ask your husband if he’s having an affair, and he says no.”

And you believe him. Your default is that he is telling the truth. And whatever little inconsistencies you spot in his story, you explain away. But three months later, you notice an unusual hotel charge on his credit card bill. And the combination of that and the weeks of unexplained absences and mysterious phone calls pushes you over the top.

That’s how lies are detected. Default to truth becomes an issue. When we choose between two alternatives, one of which is likely and the other impossible to imagine. Default to truth biases us in favor of the most likely interpretation, right up to the point where believing becomes absolutely impossible.

This is how most human beings are wired. In those rare cases where trust ends in betrayal, those victimized by default to truth deserve our sympathy, not our censure.

Anne: That’s so good.

Chandra: And I came across that, and it was really validating. Because I’d had people ask me after my husband left and his affair came out. And I had said, “I knew something was going on, but I just didn’t know what.”

I knew something was wrong, and I knew he was lying to me. And I remember one woman in particular said to me, then why didn’t you just leave? If you knew, why didn’t you just leave? She was challenging me. And I thought. I couldn’t explain it at the time. Now after reading this, I understand we’re not wired to think people lie to us.

Anne: Especially not our own husband.

Chandra: Exactly, it takes a lot of evidence to get to the point that pushes us over that edge.

Seeing Lying Everywhere After Betrayal

Chandra: And it’s funny, because after all this has happened, I think everybody lies to me. Now, it’s really hard for me to trust anybody. I almost think if I could talk to my younger self, I would want to say don’t believe everything people tell you. Even and especially, not necessarily the people you trust the most. They might not always tell you the truth. Be willing to consider that.

Anne: I’m always telling women in this situation where they find out about pornography or something that’s a big lie, huge lie, to reconsider all the other things he said. So for example, if they said, “Well, I talked to my pastor, and he says I’m fine. And that I can, whatever.” Maybe consider, he never actually talked to the pastor. Maybe the pastor never even said that. “I said to my therapist, this, and the therapist said this.” Maybe consider the therapist didn’t say that at all.

There are so many things to consider that you think, okay, well, I caught him in this. And then he goes to the therapist, and the therapist said. And they don’t realize that perhaps the therapist never even said that. So we just don’t know what we don’t know in these situations. Because we hear so many lies. It is impossible to know where the truth starts and where the lies end, or vice versa.

The Importance Of Safety In Relationships When Your New Husband Is Abusive Too

Anne: But what you can know is that this person is not trustworthy, and I need to be safe. And someone lying to me is a safety issue. Yeah, it’s, it’s not a moral issue. It’s not an annoying issue or an addiction issue. It’s a safety issue. You deserve to be in a relationship where you are emotionally and psychologically safe. Because it’s not psychologically or emotionally safe for you to be in a relationship where someone is lying to you. Especially if they’re constantly lying to you.

That is just super, super unsafe. And it’s also really bad for you spiritually because then you’re having to go against what God is trying to alarm you about. Like the spirit or your internal intuition, whatever you want to call it, is screaming out to you. Something isn’t right. And in order to trust your husband, in that instance, you’re having to go against the ultimate truth. And that is the spirit of God, if you’re religious or your own intuition, or the universe or whatever you want to call it.

In my faith, I call it the spirit, it’s trying to warn you someone is lying to you. Get to safety, right? Safety, safety, safety , but it’s so hard to determine when you’re not safe. That’s the problem. It sounds easy, but determining this is very hard. Yeah, I don’t blame anyone who is going through the difficult time of trying to sort out what is happening. Especially if they’re never getting the correct information.

Which is why I wrote The Living Free Workshop to give women a way to determine their husband’s character. To get enough space to observe what he’s doing.

The Journey To Emotional Safety Is Challenging

Anne: Now that you’re married to someone who is not abusive, I hear from people in that situation. I’ve never been in that situation, so I don’t know what it’s like. But for women in abuse situations, who don’t know it’s abuse. When they go to clergy or friends or therapists or whoever. A lot of people will tell them, “Well, you know, marriage is really hard.”

It’s a lot of hard work. And then I talk to women who have been in an abuse situation, and then they marry a man who’s non-abusive. And frequently, I would say 100 percent of the time, probably 99 percent of the time. They’re like, it’s not hard work at all. Like it’s a little work, but it’s not. I don’t even know what they’re talking about. Marriage does not have to be this grueling, terrible slog. Do you agree with that? How are, how are you feeling?

Chandra: Oh my, wholeheartedly. After the craziness, chaos, pain, and struggle of two abusive situations. I would say being married to a “normal” man is the most, I can’t even describe the difference. It’s so much easier. It’s so peaceful. And so different. And I want to just say this, the difference, being intimate with a man who is not caught up in pornography. Versus one who is, that is like night and day.

And that’s real love. When the man is not addicted to pornography, you are the apple of his eye. What I mean is you are the center of his world, because he’s not distracted and looking around at everything else. I wanted marriage to be like that.

There Is Nothing Wrong With Wanting To Be Loved When Your New Husband Is Abusive Too

Chandra: A situation with somebody that loves me, cares about me, and wants to focus on me. And love him in return. That’s what I wanted. And now I finally have that, and it’s like night and day.

Anne: Well, that’s what marriage is or should be, right?

Chandra: Yes, that’s what it should be.

Anne: The men who marry and don’t want to love their wife. They don’t commit to loving her. They don’t care. What they want is a slave, maybe? Or someone who does their dishes or something?

Chandra: Why do those men even get married? I don’t understand why they marry.

Anne: I don’t either, control, maybe?

Chandra: I’m not sure. Yeah, somebody to do the dishes and make dinner? I don’t know.

Anne: I think they perceive it as a control thing, right?

Chandra: Maybe.

Anne: Someone’s in their power, and many abusers like it when their wives have children. Because then they can entrap them, right? So from a religious standpoint, oh, marry, have kids, and abusers are like, great.! Because then she will be stuck with me forever, and getting away from me is very, very hard. So all the religious scripting too makes it difficult to recognize, like maybe having a kid with this guy is not the best idea.

You know, it’s so complex. And I appreciate you taking the time to share. And thank you for saying that, because the more women I talk to in healthy marriages. That are saying that, it makes me happy. And I just want to share that with everyone else.

Marriage To A Non-Abuser Is Not Hard

Anne: Like, when people say, well, you know, this is an average marriage. Because the average marriage is really, really hard.

Chandra: No, it’s not.

Anne: The answer would be, well, the average marriage to an abuser is, yeah, it is hard,

Chandra: But not a non-abuser.

Chandra: Nope, not a non-abuser. It’s totally different.

Anne: And I’m so happy for you that you’ve got that. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story with us today.

Chandra: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to hear it. It helps to talk about it.