It’s super common for an emotional abuser to lie about his ex, but did you know that tradition is centuries old? If you’re wondering, “Why does my ex lie about what happened?” Here’s a bit of history you absolutely need to know.

Why does my ex lie about what happened? Labeling a woman as crazy is a powerful tool that men have had in their arsenal for centuries. And it’s a little confusing: when a woman is clearly sane and healthy, why in the world would someone lie and say she’s crazy, unstable, and even dangerous? If you need live support, learn about our online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

In Elizabeth Packard’s day, being outspoken was literally a symptom of insanity: Gaslighting an entire society into believing that women who think and share their ideas are actually unstable and mentally ill is a very effective tool in keeping women very quiet.

He Lies To Avoid Accountability

Rather than own up to their own abusive or harmful behaviors. Men simply use the justice system against women. By convincing those in power that the victim is crazy. It isn’t hard to convince others that women are crazy. The odds are stacked against us.

Kate talks about how cooperation with the people in power was the only way for a woman to be considered sane. This is just another way to say that as long as we allow misogynistic, patriarchal systems and people to control us, we have a degree of security. Oh goodie, they won’t throw us in an insane asylum.

Why does my ex lie about what happened? They say we’re crazy because ultimately it’s what keeps men in power. Anne wholeheartedly advocates for women to boldly stand in their truth and speak up for justice, refusing to comply with abusive systems and relationships. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know the incredible frustration that comes from labels such as crazy. They convince you that you’re crazy. There’s nothing like it.

You need support. Come join our daily BTR.ORG Group Sessions to get the support you need.

Transcript: Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened?

Anne: Kate Moore is the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of the Radium Girls. It is a winner of the 2017 Goodreads Choice Award for Best History. And voted U. S. Librarian’s Favorite Nonfiction Book of 2017. And named the Notable Nonfiction Book of 2018 by the American Library Association.

A British writer based in London, Kate writes across various genres and has had multiple titles on the Sunday Times bestseller list. Her latest book is The Woman They Could Not Silence. Welcome, Kate.

Kate: Thank you so much for having me.

Anne: It is such an honor to have you. Thank you so much for all your hard work, like bringing these issues to light for women all over the world. It’s really important, and I appreciate your work.

Kate: It’s my honor to do it. And I have to thank you for the work you do. You do so much. What you’re doing is helping people. Having worked with survivors of domestic violence and abusive relationships, I know how important it is to have that support network. So thank you for inspiring people and supporting them through these difficult times.

Anne: It’s an all hands on deck effort to stop abuse. And help women asking the question, Why does my ex lie about what happened?

Kate: It needs to be across the size, you know, so you’re doing an awesome job. So thank you.

Synopsis Of The Woman They Could Not Silence

Anne: For those in our audience who may not be familiar with your book, without revealing too much, can you please provide us with a synopsis of your book, The Woman They Could Not Silence?

Kate: It is my honor to introduce your listeners to The Woman They Could Not Silence. Her name is Elizabeth Packard. It’s not surprising if none of your listeners have heard her name before. Because as often happens to feisty women who stand up for themselves. History has chosen to commemorate instead those men who tried but failed to silence her. And Elizabeth’s story and voice have been lost in time.

Her story starts on the cusp of the American Civil War in June 1860. It starts with Elizabeth, a 43 year old housewife and mother of six, lying in bed in her marital home. It starts with a simple question. What would happen if your husband could commit you to an insane asylum just because you disagreed with him?

Anne: You know, that question is strangely relevant today. Why does my ex lie about what happened? Not that men commit their abuse victims to an insane asylum. But they are committing them metaphorically to other people, thinking they’re crazy. So this concept is relevant today to abuse victims.

Anne: How did you come across Elizabeth’s story?

Kate: How I came across Elizabeth’s story is a little bit topsy turvy. Because I decided what I wanted to write about first, before I even knew her name. So I wrote The Woman They Could Not Silence because of the Me Too movement. And you probably remember how incredible that fall was, when everywhere women were speaking up against abuse and harassment.

The Silencing Of Women Through History

Kate: Crucially, people listened and believed us. And that got me thinking, well why has it taken so long, because it’s not like the fall of 2017 was the first time. That people had spoken out about these things. People took us seriously for the first time.

I thought that for centuries, whenever women used our voices, we are called crazy. That is something that resonates with your audience so much. Because gaslighting and calling you mad is going on in relationships every single day.

It happens also, I think, on a sort of political stage, you only have to look at Nancy Pelosi or any sort of public female political figures. She is called crazy because she speaks up and uses her voice. I decided to write about the way women are silenced through our mental health.

I searched for a woman to whom that had happened, and found Elizabeth’s story. Elizabeth’s story is amazing, not only because she survives this experience. Her husband dispatches her to an asylum. Even though she’s sane. What’s incredible about it is that through that crucible of suffering, she actually becomes the woman they could not silence.

She finds her voice, and she uses it to change the world.

Anne: I’m getting chills. Like, seriously.

Kate: She is a seriously impressive person. I think for me, she is the most inspiring and resilient woman I’ve ever encountered. Because everyone told her she was mad. Her husband, her doctor, her community. But Elizabeth knew she was not. Her husband lied about her. And today women ask, why does my ex lie about what happened?

Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened: Elizabeth’s Famous Quote

Kate: A famous quote of hers is, “I, though a woman, have just as good a right to my opinion as my husband has.” But just because she believed that. Because she asserted herself, and what she believed in. In terms of the science of the age, it was enough to have her sent away to an insane asylum.

Anne: That is just, I don’t know, I’m feeling a lot of emotion right now. Not just for her, but all the women, throughout time. Who we stand on their shoulders, right? Like for Elizabeth, like the work she did, just for standing up for herself. She stood up for all of us. All of us who ask the question, why does my ex lie about what happened?

Kate: Yes, completely. I think she is. Even though she herself was exceptional, I think she is also an everywoman. I think she saw herself in that way. She meets the other women in the asylum to whom the same thing happened. Husbands and fathers sent them away. You know, these are women who simply have defied domestic control. They’re causing too much trouble. They’re just themselves, frankly, and that’s enough to get them dispatched.

She meets these women, and she calls them sisters. And what’s remarkable about Elizabeth is that she could have saved herself countless times in her story. She could have got out early, she could have done enough to help her own situation.

Then he determined that, you know, she wasn’t going anywhere. She was here to make a difference, and she was going to take every single woman with her as she fights for freedom and independence. And that fight continues even outside the brick walls of an insane asylum.

Elizabeth’s Fight For Freedom Relates To Modern Abuse Victims

Kate: She becomes a political force, and she has made the world better for all of us. Not just the sisters she personally met, but for every sister in America, every sister across the world. Elizabeth spearheaded a campaign to make things better for us all.

Anne: This book, which I’m sure now everyone is like, how do I get my hands on it? You can go to our books page, which is btr. org slash books. We have a curated list of all the books we recommend there, it is on that list. Our links take you straight to Amazon. So I’m sure you can find it on Amazon.

Our community consists of women experiencing abuse in their relationships. People call them crazy and all kinds of things. Like gold diggers sometimes, or that they want to ruin their families, or crazy stuff that is not at all true, and particularly they suffer from emotional, psychological, and spiritual abuse.

Most innocent bystanders, they do not see an abusive man calling her crazy as abuse. They just perceive it as, “His side of the story.” So, in terms of Elizabeth’s experience, how might they relate with Elizabeth in this way?

Kate: I think Elizabeth’s story will resonate so much. And I actually want to share a quote with you from Elizabeth herself, because I think she grasped exactly that situation that you’re describing.

Elizabeth’s Anticipation Of Modern Laws

Kate: I think she almost anticipated some of the laws that we’re finally seeing today in the UK. For example, there’s now a law about coercive control. Elizabeth wrote, and this is back in the 1860s.

She said, “When a woman is brought before our man courts and our man juries. And has no bruises, wounds, or marks of violence upon her person to show as a ground of her complaint. It is hard for them to realize that she has any reason to appeal to them for protection. While at the same time, her whole physical system may be writhing in agony from spirit wrongs.”

Elizabeth understood it wasn’t necessarily about physical abuse. A man trying to crush your spirit, a man trying to dismiss what you’re thinking and feeling. In itself, it is enough to make you writhe in agony. She appreciated that because this was an invisible abuse, most people didn’t credit it. They didn’t give it the time of day, the attention it deserved. And the protection that women deserved from these abusers. She was anticipating all of that in the 1860s.

Anne: Did Elizabeth ever go through a period where she wondered if she was crazy, where she thought, maybe it is me. Maybe I am crazy.

Kate: I think remarkably, she didn’t, actually. Her strength of spirit, that sort of confidence in herself and her self belief, is actually what gets her through everybody telling her the rest.

Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened: Elizabeth’s Mental Strength

Kate: What I will say though is that she’s been shut up in an insane asylum. She’s moved to the worst wards. Because she calls out the doctor on his sexist, abusive regime. So she’s moved from a pleasant ward to a ward, as they would describe it at the time, full of maniacs.

She is locked up with no promise of release. No hope of ever getting out or ever seeing her children again. And there are moments, she writes, where she comes near the precipice of madness. Not because she was mad originally, but simply because it’s so hard for anyone to endure that continued abuse. And endure that lack of hope without it affecting your mental health.

So she wobbled sometimes on her journey, but I think ultimately the faith in herself and in God is partly what gets her through. What I will say is that she does go on a journey. And something that resonated with me is what she talks about at the start of the book. Feeling small, feeling that nothing she said was worth saying or hearing. And I know I’ve been that woman.

To see Elizabeth grow from that position to someone who eventually becomes a political campaigner. Someone who takes on her husband, takes on her doctor, takes on the world, and to have confidence in herself and in her voice. That journey is so inspirational for me. And others as they wonder, why does my ex lie about what happened.

Empowering Victims To Help Others

Anne: That sounds so exciting. When victims think, I want to help other victims! Maybe be a therapist, or a coach. I want to encourage everyone to take a deep breath, and think about when you were 8 or 9, what did you want to be? Did you want to be an attorney? Did you want to be a florist? We don’t all have to be a therapist, to help victims. Like you could help victims as a florist, or as a horse trainer.

You can advocate for women in anything you do. There are people like Elizabeth, maybe like me or you, who have made our life mission to directly advocate. Through politics or a podcast or other ways. But I want victims to know that you don’t have to run for office, be a therapist or something to affect the world. The best way to make the world a more peaceful place is to get yourself to safety. And the answer to, why does my ex lie about what happened, is not peaceful.

Kate: Yeah, absolutely. I think that advice about trying to center again on who you are and what you’re passionate about is so important. Because I think often when people have been in those abusive relationships, the abuse wears them down. Their very person is called out so much, is questioned so much that you question yourself.

Actually, to try and re- center it on who you are and what’s important to you is a really important thing. And I think that’s something Elizabeth Packard experiences. She has to go back to basics. And experience of being locked up in that insane asylum for years. It forces her to confront who she is and what matters.

Elizabeth’s Transformation

Kate: Ultimately, she decides that this thing is not the worst thing that could happen. That this thing is actually the best thing that could happen to her. Because she says, “The worst my enemies can do, they have done, and I fear them no more. I am now free to be true and honest. No opposition can overcome me.”

It’s like she has to hit rock bottom, but from that she can then rise like a Phoenix. To become the woman she was always destined to be.

Anne: That is so inspiring. And I want to tell all our listeners that you have your own destiny and mission. You can rise from the ashes and live a life of peace. In Elizabeth’s case, it sounds like the most amazing journey and adventure she was on. Suffering the results of her husband’s lies. We also wonder about our husband, or why does my ex lie about what happened?

Kate: Yes, yes, I think it was ultimate, and it’s one of those strange things, isn’t it? Had none of this horrific stuff ever happened to her. She would have continued in her home, being a homemaker, mother and wife. Because of these horrifying circumstances, it actually leads her to this completely different public life. Where she travels from coast to coast across America. Changing laws, minds and hearts as she goes. Inspiring women and inspiring men to help women.

And none of that would have happened had her husband not tried to silence her. So, good can come from the bad. I guess there is another chapter that comes after it. And it’s a chapter that you can write yourself and make yourself the heroine of that story. The heroine of whatever journey you’re going to go on.

Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened: Elizabeth’s Legal Impact

Anne: I feel like that now in my own personal journey from recovering from abuse. I feel like my life has become this amazing adventure, and I feel immense gratitude for what I’ve been through. I also want to acknowledge that many of our listeners are in this place where they can’t even fathom sunlight again. There is just a tunnel with no light at the end of it. And why does my ex lie about what happened still.

And it feels almost offensive. When people say, I’m so grateful because I’ve been there, or it’s like, why would I be grateful? So, to have examples like Elizabeth, especially from the 1800s, is so inspiring. You talked about the laws that Elizabeth had an influence over, and some of the work that she did here in America. For American women today, or women all over, do we have a direct benefit that we didn’t even realize we had from Elizabeth’s life work?

Kate: Definitely, she was born in Massachusetts. The story takes place in Illinois, because they move west at some point during their marriage. But, yeah, she was born and grew up in Massachusetts. I think many people don’t realize how unjust laws used to be for wives. Even today, we see that society has rules that mean women are on the back foot. And are not the people with power.

Coverture was a law. Which was inherited from England in the 1100s. It was in operation in America at the time Elizabeth was sent to the asylum.

The Legacy Of Coverture

Kate: Coverture meant wives had no legal identities. They were mere shadows of their spouses, legally. So they had no right to their own earnings. They had no right to the custody of their own children. They had no right even to their very liberty.

So her husband sending her away to the asylum was not just enabled by the medical science of the day that said assertive women were mad. The law of the land enabled it. Because the law said a husband could send his wife to an asylum by request, and specifically without the evidence of insanity required in other cases. Some of the laws that Elizabeth tackled and changed were to change that situation.

Safeguards were put in place so that the sane wives could not be sent away by their husbands. She also tackled matters such as a woman’s rights to her own earnings. Because as I said, many of your listeners will know that financial independence can give independence, full stop. If you’re financially tied to a man, it can seem almost impossible to break away. And so Elizabeth was tackling those injustices.

She wanted to make sure that women could not be sent away by their husbands. She wanted to ensure that women could stand on their own two feet, so that they could have the custody of their children.

Elizabeth suffered terribly when it came to caring for her six children. Because she was sent away to the asylum, she had no care of them for the years she was there. And then even when she came out and there was a landmark legal trial, which actually, spoiler alert, declared her sane. Her husband had lied about what happened. And some of us wonder why does my ex lie about what happened.

Elizabeth’s Campaign For Change

Kate: Even then, she could still not care for her children. Her husband essentially kidnapped them. And took them to a different state. That was legal, because Elizabeth, as the wife, had no right to custody of her children. Some laws she also campaigned to change and did change were about the custody of children. Mothers were given custody, the same rights as men. They could actually be guardians for their own children.

Initially when she started campaigning, a wife, by law, could not become the guardian of her children. So these are the kind of laws she was tackling. We may think, oh, well, it was the 1800s, you know, that is a very different time then. Actually, my research showed that hangovers from these 19th century laws stretched way into present day and more recent history.

So for example, did you know that it wasn’t until 1974 that American women could get a credit card independently? Before then, a man had to co-sign any credit application.

Anne: What? Sorry, I just have to pause there and be like, what?

Kate: Yep.

Anne: I was born in 1977, so this is three years before I’m born. Thank goodness someone liberated us from that. But why actually does my ex lie about what happened? Is still a question we ask.

Kate: So I mean, I’ve given very specific concrete examples there, but that’s the kind of campaign Elizabeth embarked on. As you say, as well as the concrete laws, she changed in the law books. She is a shining example of an oppressed, abused, gaslit, woman. And told she was crazy.

Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened: Stereotypes Of Abuse Victims

Kate: She’s a woman who managed, somehow, against all odds, to rise above that and fight for what she believed in. And to fight for her freedom and the freedom of others.

Anne: I wanted to talk about stereotypes. That abuse victims are like waify women who can’t speak up for themselves. Who have a hard time processing things. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve seen that victims come in all shapes and sizes. All of our personalities are different. So many of us are strong and brave, and that’s how Elizabeth was. And I actually feel like women who are confident, self-assured, and honest can experience even more abuse.

But they don’t look like an abuse victim to people. Because they think, she tells everyone she’s abused. She tells people her husband had an affair. And goes to PTA meetings and runs for city council. How could she be abused? And I wonder if one of the reasons why Elizabeth is so horrifically abused, is because she was outspoken. And because she had this heart of justice. She wasn’t necessarily more abused than other women of her time.

But I don’t want women to think like, oh, if I spoke up more or if I was a certain way, I wouldn’t get abused. Because in some cases, I think those of us who stick it to the man, if I’m gonna use that term. We almost get more vilified and more told that we’re bad or evil, or that we won’t stay in our lane. Would you say her strength was one of the things her husband found so threatening? And one of the reasons why he abused her so severely? Probably, and answers, why does my ex lie about what happened?

The Strength Of Outspoken Women

Kate: It definitely is why he abused her so severely. Absolutely. Her outspokenness actually was her downfall. That was why she was sent away. It might seem shocking to listeners today. But actually, psychiatry of the era declared outspoken and assertive women insane.

That was medical science at the time. Backed up the husband in saying that, this strong willed and this outspoken woman, well, she must be mad. That was what the medical textbooks of the era said. Women who have plenty of nerve were literally textbook examples of female insanity. Any educated or assertive woman is seen as liable to go mad. Even a woman who simply read.

I’ve found the records of the insane asylums of the era, and a cause of madness in that time was reading novels. So any woman who uses her brain and tongue is seen at risk of madness. And was liable to be sent away, just as Elizabeth was. Absolutely, her strength was the reason her husband wanted to dispatch her to the asylum.

Anne: Well, and this generational trauma that women feel makes me want to pause and point out that the abuse has worked. Like women say today, I’m not going to say that, because he’ll get angry. Or I can’t do that, because people won’t like me or they’re not going to think I’m okay. They ask, why does my ex lie about what happened?

The Societal Pressure To Conform

Anne: I prefer not to swear on this podcast, because I know so many victims have been sworn at. I don’t want to trigger anyone. I’m going to use the word witch, but you know what I’m saying. They call a woman these names. Like she’s such a witch. So other women are like, well, I don’t want to be perceived as this difficult, pushy, aggressive woman.

The overall layering of abuse over generations has these repercussions. Women think I can’t say what I think or do what I think is right. Because people will not perceive me as a nice person or cooperative. I want to be perceived as kind and cooperative. Then I have to deal with, why does my ex lie about what happened.

Kate: It’s so interesting to use the word cooperative there, because my research didn’t just look at the 1860s, but also into the 20th and 21st centuries. A line that stood out to me was from a patient in a mental hospital. She said, if you’re uncooperative, you’re crazy. That is experienced both in the 20th century and in Elizabeth’s world.

The only way they could get out from the asylum was to cooperate, paste on these smiles and simper sweetly. It wasn’t talking about the stuff that was making them angry or sad. They had to be these sort of cut-out dolls. And that line from this woman in the mental hospital in the 20th century, if you’re uncooperative, you’re crazy. That for me just sums up the whole situation. If you’re not towing the line. Whether that’s within a relationship or in society, then you’re crazy.

Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened: Modern Parallels To Elizabeth’s Story

Kate: And as I say, I just think it’s so interesting you use the word cooperate. Because that was what’s coming up from people who had experienced these things. That’s how they summarize it.

Anne: That is real time happening now. I would say even with women who aren’t “abused” per se by their spouse. But maybe in the workplace or maybe in their church. Where they feel like I can’t be myself or say what I want to say. I have to say it in a certain way.

There are so many restraints. So that you’re not perceived as this difficult, witchy jerk. And the bar is so different for women than men. And nobody perceives that as throwing her under the bus, because she has a different opinion as abuse.

Kate: I’ve had readers contact me saying how haunting they found Elizabeth’s story, because similar things have happened to them. For example, someone calls the police because of a domestic violence incident. They don’t help the woman. They talk to her husband. And they say, “If she’s causing you trouble, we can make arrangements to have her taken away to the mental hospital.” This was from 2017. A reader emailed me about that situation.

I personally interviewed people from the 1980s, for example, where an abusive husband sent his wife to a mental institution for several months, his word against hers, and they believed him. Why does my ex lie about what happened? She sas sent away. We think of it as history, but actually just from those few anecdotes that I have encountered. Personally, I think these things are still happening.

Elizabeth’s Enduring Legacy

Anne: Gabby Petito is the most recent, widely publicized case. You’ve got a film of the police talking to her boyfriend, who is abusing her. The boyfriend is calm and collected. He says, “Oh, she’s just a little crazy,” essentially. And the police say, “Oh, yeah, we get that. Just separate for the night.” Then she ends up murdered.

Kate: Hysterical, that’s the other one, hysterical.

Anne: Oh yes, hysterical!

Kate: Which of course has its roots in hysteria, hysterectomy. It’s all tied together etymologically, linking women and madness.

Anne: It is maddening. Why does my ex lie about what happened?

Kate: It was my draft title for the book, actually, Maddening, because the situation is maddening for Elizabeth. But as I say, what’s inspiring about her is the way she manages to rise above it and fight back. And, you know, talking about what we were just talking about, I want to share with your listeners another quote from Elizabeth.

She herself was a brilliant writer. She kept this secret journal in the asylum, which I’ve been able to draw on for writing The Woman They Could Not Silence. And she has become The Woman They Could Not Silence, because we hear her words through the years. And Elizabeth said, “Women are made to fly and soar, not to creep and crawl as the haters of our sex want us to.” And I think, as you say, we sometimes try to switch ourselves into boxes.

But if we can, we need to gather ourselves and fly and soar, as Elizabeth Packard managed to do. I hope people will find her story inspirational. And realize why does my ex lie about what happened.

They Say We’re Crazy, Because it Keeps Them in Power

Anne: We’ve talked about how her experience is relevant today. Why does my ex lie about what happened? It’s been going on for a very long time. A century and a half later, let’s pretend like Elizabeth shows up. She can see what’s going on now. Like if she could give us some kind of motivational speech, or if she could point out something that maybe we’re not even aware of. What do you think she would say to us?

Kate: I think she’d be disappointed that things haven’t changed enough from her time. I think she writes about wanting a female president and things like that. We’re still not there yet in terms of society being more equal. But what I think she would actually do is straighten her shoulders. I think she’d pick up her skirts and go into battle. She’d go into battle for all of us. She was that kind of person. A review in Australia actually described her as a battering ram in a bonnet.

And that was Elizabeth Packard. So I don’t know exactly what direct advice she would have. And in fact, Elizabeth was actually the kind of person who wouldn’t impart advice. She would lead by example.

She would go into battle for us, I think. I think she would choose whichever battle she thought was the most relevant. She would dedicate herself to make sure wrongs are overturned and justice is done for everyone. That’s who she was. She answered, “Why does my ex lie about what happened?”

Anne: What you said makes me feel good. My nickname in high school was the battle axe.

Kate: I love it.

Anne: And I loved it. I found it to be very endearing, and I want other women to feel that same way.

Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened: He Lies & Says I’m Crazy To Silence Me

Anne: If someone says you’re too stubborn, instead of being like, no, I’m not, let me get back in my box. Be like, of course I am. I’m stubborn for truth. I’m stubborn for justice. Just like Elizabeth did. You don’t have to back away from that. Like, I’m crazy because this is an insane situation. And anyone in this situation might be crazy because it’s insane and it’s not right. Why does my ex lie about what happened?

Kate: Yeah, exactly. And that brings to mind, you know, some of the stuff said to Elizabeth. She eventually hated her husband for putting her in the asylum. This is cited as evidence of her madness. Because a wife is supposed to be loving and caring.

She is angry with her husband. And that is cited as evidence of her madness. Because a natural wife, a healthy well wife, wouldn’t behave in that way. As you say, how do you respond to that? You know, anger inspiring insane situation, but these are the kind of things Elizabeth was up against.

I just want to thank you for this opportunity. I’m such an advocate for Elizabeth Packard’s story. I think any of your listeners who read her story will be shocked by what happens to her. Medical science, the law, and everything are stacked against her. But the inspiration of how she defies the odds, the inspiration of how she finds herself in the midst of this darkness and this oppression. I hope that shines a light for everybody.

A Final Quote From Elizabeth

Kate: I just want to finish by sharing with you another quotation from Elizabeth. She said, “I will not hide my light under a bushel. I will set it upon a candlestick that it may give light to others.” And I hope anyone who reads her story in The Woman They Could Not Silence, I hope it lights your life.

Anne: Kate, thank you so much for your work. And helping us understand why does my ex lie about what happened? Again, you can find her book on our books page, btr. org slash books. Or you can find it on Amazon.

Thank you again, Kate, for all your hard work on behalf of women everywhere.

Kate: It’s my pleasure. Thank you for this opportunity.